What is works salvation and why will it send people to hell?

[mikeledes]

Vocimike, Jesus can never contradict Himself. During His earthly ministry, Jesus revealed all of the basic elements and conditions regarding salvation (i.e. the necessity of faith in Him, the role of good works, perseverance to the end, etc.). What He preached can never be contradicted by any subsequent writings of the apostles.

Jesus said:

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 7:21

21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 16:27

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

And Paul said:

Romans 2:5-8

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Galatians 6:7-10

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Regarding the question to the rich young man, another person asked Him the same question and He responded:

Luke 10:25-28

25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

God Bless,
Michael

The above verses still stand. No matter how some may try to ignore these verses, they clearly indicate that somethingother than faith is required. Let me add another one:

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

So we must by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body! That means something other than mere faith and only those who are* putting* to death the deeds of the body will live! Compare that with Galatians 6:7-10.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What you have said is simply false.

Especially when the Catholic church teaches that complete predestination (grace to glory) is independent of every merit and that any merit is a fruit of grace and depends upon the free gift of final perseverance (perseverance to the end) which God grants to whomever He pleases. If people insist on attacking a straw man, there is nothing you can really do about it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLGIRLS]

I personally think that “faith alone” is dangerously close to universalism. “Jesus did it all, we can do nothing”. Ok, then why isn’t EVERYONE saved? Why is there a hell? (UU’s would say they are, and there’s not, Sola Fide’s would say there is, and UU’s are going there! ). The fact is, the simple act of believing is a work. Furthermore, it’s not just believing that’s required, because even the devil believes. You have to accept Christ as your Savior, and rely on Him completely for your salvation. That, my friends, is work. That’s hard work. I don’t care if you’ve never done anything else, participated in any sacrament, read one line of the bible, even gone to church. The “simple” act of relying on Christ for your salvation (at least for me, anyway ) is WORK.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[sandusky]

ALLGIRLS:

I personally think that “faith alone” is dangerously close to universalism. “Jesus did it all, we can do nothing”.

Ellen, ISTM that you are saying that “Jesus didn’t do it all,” but that works are required by the professing believer in addition to Jesus’ sacrifice; am I understanding you correctly, or not?

ALLGIRLS:

The fact is, the simple act of believing is a work.

As stated, that is an opinion; do you have any biblical support for your opinion?

ALLGIRLS:

Furthermore, it’s not just believing that’s required, because even the devil believes. You have to accept Christ as your Savior, and rely on Him completely for your salvation. That, my friends, is work. That’s hard work. I don’t care if you’ve never done anything else, participated in any sacrament, read one line of the bible, even gone to church. The “simple” act of relying on Christ for your salvation (at least for me, anyway ) is WORK.

Support?

Also, again, ISTM that you are saying that Christ’s sacrifice, plus additional works are required for salvation; is that correct?

 

[heisenburg]

If a Man has saving faith in the Lord, and performs any act of obedience (work) and does so for the Glory of God, is he really being saved by works, or is he saved because of Grace and Obedience?

If a man has a saving faith, but proclaims his ‘obedience’ as a shining example of how ‘Good’ he is, and thus taking the glory when it should go to god, Is this man truly being obedient?

If a man has no faith at all, even after hearing the good new, but lives a life full of good works and deeds, will he be saved?

If a Man has saving Faith, yet is not obedient to the lord, will he be saved by his faith alone despite his sin of not doing what is right?

Any man that claims they can be saved of their own merit is on a crash course for torment.
Like wise, any man that claims they can believe, but not be obedient is on a very similar course to destruction.

What we must remember is that any work we do must be done for the glory of God, not ourselves… and that is the key difference

In Christ

 

[Syele]

OSAS and Arminian are the opposite of each other!! I’m not entirely sure what groups you mean here, but saying “OSAS Arminian” is like saying “Catholic Baptist”. It makes no sense…

There are some “4 point Arminians” as well as “4 point Calvinists” these people follow the logic all the way to loss of salvation and then do a flip-flip and stop making sense. On one site I was reading along about how they believed the 5 points and it was all over the place and they said then “We realize these do not follow logic, but God Is above Logic and can do things however He likes.”

I’ve heard them all, except for that one… Yikes!!
My own favorite “dumbness/works” one was when someone said, “Of course I’m a Christian; I pay my taxes!” I’m still:hypno: mulling that one over…
This is the kind of thing that I mean by “works salvation”, too, though. Not that no works are required; but there are folks who think they can sneer at God all their lives, & its OK–as long as they’re “respectable”…whatever they mean by that…

Hmm what if I’m exempt from taxes?? LOL

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

What we must remember is that any work we do must be done for the glory of God, not ourselves… and that is the key difference

Do those works secure salvation—are they necessary for salvation’s maintenance?

 

[mikeledes]

OSAS and Arminian are the opposite of each other!! I’m not entirely sure what groups you mean here, but saying “OSAS Arminian” is like saying “Catholic Baptist”. It makes no sense…

All Protestants who believe in *free will * and are not Calvinist are considered Arminian. Among those who are Arminians, there are those who believe in eternal security.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[heisenburg]

As you would agree, we are saved by Grace alone…

However, scripture tells us in James that anyone that knows what is the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins. Though a once or twice may not effect us, however, if we habitually “don’t do what is right” our sin compounds on itself, and thus, like any sin, eventually separates us.

We can repent and reset ourselves, but not doing what is right, ie works, results in sin, and thus, we become separated…

As the old saying goes… I was saved by baptism, I am being saved by keeping my faith and obedience, and I hope to be saved at my particular Judgment…

Salvations is an ongoing, lifelong process, not a single time and place event

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

As you would agree, we are saved by Grace alone…

However, scripture tells us in James that anyone that knows what is the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins. Though a once or twice may not effect us, however, if we habitually “don’t do what is right” our sin compounds on itself, and thus, like any sin, eventually separates us.

We can repent and reset ourselves, but not doing what is right, ie works, results in sin, and thus, we become separated…

As the old saying goes… I was saved by baptism, I am being saved by keeping my faith and obedience, and I hope to be saved at my particular Judgment…

Salvations is an ongoing, lifelong process, not a single time and place event

In Christ

ISTM that you are answering my question in the affirmative: those works secure salvation, and, they are necessary for salvation’s maintenance; is my understanding of your statement correct?

 

[heisenburg]

Works are necessary because not doing them is a sin. It is not works centric, but they are needed because to not do them is a sin. It is like anything else that results in sin, if you keep doing it, you separate yourself from God.

What we cannot do is say that because it is a work, it therefore doesn’t hold condemnation for a lack of work. Also, anything you do is a work. Whether you feed the poor, or pray for a friend, all of that is ‘work’ Some are outward, some are inward. Work is NOT limited to just the beatitudes.

Ultimately, what a Catholic means by saying work, really means obedience.

Obedience doesn’t GAIN you anything, but a lack of obedience results in sin, and thus can potentially cause you to loose your very salvation.

However, as mentioned, it must be remembered that anything we do is for God, not us. If we boast, even a little in what we have done, we sin.

Why would anyone complain about works when scripture says not doing those works results in Sin?

In Christ

 

[mikeledes]

As you would agree, we are saved by Grace alone…

However, scripture tells us in James that anyone that knows what is the right thing to do, and does not do it, sins. Though a once or twice may not effect us, however, if we habitually “don’t do what is right” our sin compounds on itself, and thus, like any sin, eventually separates us.

We can repent and reset ourselves, but not doing what is right, ie works, results in sin, and thus, we become separated…

As the old saying goes… I was saved by baptism, I am being saved by keeping my faith and obedience, and I hope to be saved at my particular Judgment…

Salvations is an ongoing, lifelong process, not a single time and place event

In Christ

Hi heisenburg! Those who want to believe in their own understanding of Catholicism will believe it and will not budge.

The Catholic Church clearly teaches that salvation depends upon God’s mercy and grace. Humans cannot do anything that has salvific value or pleasing to God apart from God’s grace. It is God who enlightens us with His grace, gives us the gift of faith and love, forgives us our sins, gives us the ability to persevere, and grants the gift of final perseverance (i.e perseverance to the end) to whomever He wishes. The execution of God’s plan of salvation in time involves our works, but does not depend on our works. It does not matter how many works you’ve done, there is no merit apart from the unmerited gift of final perseverance. It is God who maintains us in a state of grace and with our merits by granting this gift. If you don’t receive this unmerited gift, then you won’t go to heaven, no matter how many good works you’ve done in the past. He does not distribute this gift on the basis of works.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLGIRLS]

So if Christ’s sacrifice is all that was needed, NOTHING else, for everyone for all time, why isn’t EVERYONE going to heaven? If belief is NOT a work, then why can’t I simply acknowledge Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God (just like Satan does), then steal, lie,fornicate, beat my children, and watch people starve in the street w/o doing anything for them, for the rest of my life, and still go to heaven?

Really, the only way Sola Fide really makes sense is through double predestination. Not everyone goes to heaven, b/c God created some people specifically for hell, Christ’s sacrifice is only for “the elect”, and those who are going to heaven have absolutely no say in the matter, therefore they can’t “do” anything to effect or change it. So you have to create the “loopholes” of “works flowing from salvation”, and/or “never was saved in the first place” for the OSAS folks, because no one wants to admit that someone could be “saved” and still be a horrible unrepentent sinner who’s never prayed outside of saying “the sinner’s prayer” one time, never darkens the door of a church, or helps the poor and vulnerable. And that’s on top of having to ignore Jesus’ commands in the Gospels and James’ word’s in his epistle. So much for Sola Scriptura , but that’s another thread.

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[sandusky]

Works are necessary because not doing them is a sin. It is not works centric, but they are needed because to not do them is a sin. It is like anything else that results in sin, if you keep doing it, you separate yourself from God.

What we cannot do is say that because it is a work, it therefore doesn’t hold condemnation for a lack of work. Also, anything you do is a work. Whether you feed the poor, or pray for a friend, all of that is ‘work’ Some are outward, some are inward. Work is NOT limited to just the beatitudes.

Ultimately, what a Catholic means by saying work, really means obedience.

Obedience doesn’t GAIN you anything, but a lack of obedience results in sin, and thus can potentially cause you to loose your very salvation.

However, as mentioned, it must be remembered that anything we do is for God, not us. If we boast, even a little in what we have done, we sin.

Why would anyone complain about works when scripture says not doing those works results in Sin?

In Christ

Thanks heisenburg; I’m going to take the statement above that I’ve bolded and colored as your answer. Even with the qualifications you offer, that statement is the bottom line—it’s a sin not to do works, and sin leads to a loss of justification/salvation in your soteriology.

I’ll stay with my understanding of your soteriology: it is salvation by cooperation, which is not salvation by grace. (cf my posts #s 32, 41).

 

[sandusky]

ALLGIRLS:

So if Christ’s sacrifice is all that was needed, NOTHING else, for everyone for all time, why isn’t EVERYONE going to heaven? If belief is NOT a work, then why can’t I simply acknowledge Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God (just like Satan does), then steal, lie,fornicate, beat my children, and watch people starve in the street w/o doing anything for them, for the rest of my life, and still go to heaven?

Really, the only way Sola Fide really makes sense is through double predestination. Not everyone goes to heaven, b/c God created some people specifically for hell, Christ’s sacrifice is only for “the elect”, and those who are going to heaven have absolutely no say in the matter, therefore they can’t “do” anything to effect or change it. So you have to create the “loopholes” of “works flowing from salvation”, and/or “never was saved in the first place” for the OSAS folks, because no one wants to admit that someone could be “saved” and still be a horrible unrepentent sinner who’s never prayed outside of saying “the sinner’s prayer” one time, never darkens the door of a church, or helps the poor and vulnerable. And that’s on top of having to ignore Jesus’ commands in the Gospels and James’ word’s in his epistle. So much for Sola Scriptura , but that’s another thread.

In Christ,

Ellen

Thanks for the unsolicited diatribe, Ellen; however, it doesn’t answer the solicited questions put to you in my post #64 on this thread.

 

[CentralFLJames]

ISTM that you are answering my question in the affirmative: those works secure salvation, and, they are necessary for salvation’s maintenance; is my understanding of your statement correct?

I am usually pretty fast on the uptake on acronyms and abbreviations - but what does “ISTM” mean? Is it so hard to type out a few extra words to benefit those of us who are not up on the local lingua franca?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[VociMike]

So, Sandusky and others, regarding the question “what must I do to be saved?”

Is the answer “something” and if so, what? Or is the answer “nothing”?

 

[mikeledes]

Gospel of Christ:

John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

Another Gospel

No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

Matthew 16:27

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS

Another gospel

No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

Romans 2:5-8

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Another Gospel

No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

Galatians 6:7-10

**7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
10So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. **

Another Gospel

So what if sowing to the Spirit - also known as performing good deeds - in order to reap eternal life logically means cooperation (we’re doing something). No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

Another Gospel

So what if “by putting to death the deeds of the body you will live” logically involves human cooperation or doing something. No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

Luke 10:25-28

**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

Another Gospel

So what if Christ says do this - which means cooperation -and you will live (inherit eternal life). No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

**24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. **
Another Gospel

So what if “let” means “allow” and thus cooperation. No cooperation!

Gospel of Christ

Galatians 5:2-4

**2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

Another Gospel

So what if something you do can cause Christ to be of no benefit to you, be severed from Him, and fall from grace. No cooperation!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[teadough]

I am usually pretty fast on the uptake on acronyms and abbreviations - but what does “ISTM” mean? Is it so hard to type out a few extra words to benefit those of us who are not up on the local lingua franca?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, I am going to take a stab at it and say “ISTM” meansI “It Seems To Me”. I could be wrong. I am with you. Why not just type out a few extra words. But then again that would be like GTTB with a HHGPST for the kids.

 

[Angainor]

So, Sandusky and others, regarding the question “what must I do to be saved?”

Is the answer “something” and if so, what? Or is the answer “nothing”?

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48
There’s the answer to your question. That is what you must do to be saved.

Jesus shed his blood for the forgiveness of your sins. There is nothing you need to do, or indeed there is nothing you can do to receive this gift from Jesus. Jesus did this for you because he loves you. Jesus work is sufficient.

What does “forgiveness of sins” mean? It means your sins are forgiven you. You are counted as perfect. Your sins are forgiven.