What is works salvation and why will it send people to hell?

[sandusky]

guanophore:

There are several problems with this definition, beginning with the fact that it defines absolutely no one.

IMO, you are being dishonest in saying that. Catholics insist that works are necessary for salvation—look at all of the arguments and scripture offered to demonstrate that necessity.

guanophore:

We know that the sacrifice of Christ is completely efficacious, apart from anything that people do. However, if one chooses not to avail oneself of the benefits of that work, then the work will not benefit them, as scripture states “Christ is of no avail”. People’s refusal to accept the work of Christ does not nullify His work. For example, Judas’ betrayal of Jesus does not nullify His sacrifice. Another example are the Pharisees and Lawyers who rejected Him

What theological term do you use to describe “availing oneself of the benefits Christ’s work?”

What I’ve stated describes the theological position that holds that salvation is a two-party contract that is entered by faith, and maintained by good works. If one willfully sins, and either fails to repent, or refuses to repent, then that one breaks the contract, and forfeits salvation—does that sound familiar to you? It should as it is salvation by cooperation, rather than salvation by grace.

Those who hold the salvation by cooperation view, maintain that only by faithfully doing good works can one ever hope to achieve final salvation; IMO, that is contrary to the teaching of scripture (Eph 2:8-9; Gal 2:16).

“Good works” (doing God’s will), are evidence of one’s salvation in that they bear an outward witness to an inner faith that saves (Jas 2:14-20; 1 Jn 2:3-5), but they are not a condition, nor do they contribute to initial, or final salvation.

People are saved initially and forever through faith in Christ, and His atoning work. No meritorious, or contributory works of any kind are involved in securing or maintaining salvation; all is of God; even one’s saving faith is God’s gift (Acts 3:16; 11:18, etc.) and is maintained by Jesus’ prayers (Lk 22:32; Heb 7:25).

guanophore:

This brings us to the other problem with such a formulation. Human action IS required for one to avail oneself of His finished work on the cross. However, choosing to embrace the grace provided is categorically different than the defintion of “works based salvation” that you give. Salvation is based on grace, not works, and occurs through faith working through love. It is not the actions, devioid of grace and faith, that save. For by works of the law no one can be saved.

Could you be more ambiguous, and unclear, please?

 

[guanophore]

Salvation is all of God (cf 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13ff; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 1:3, et. al.); what else must one do in addition to what God has already done?

It is not a matter of “what else must one do in addition”. This is an erroneous formulation. One must accept and embrace all that God has done. God does not violate man’s free will.

I think part of the reason the arguement ensues is an erroneous concept of “saved”. Jesus and the Apostles never taught that “salvation” was something that happened at a single point in time, once for all time. this is a new invention.

 

[Syele]

I would define “works Salvation” as when someons believes that at Judgement, God will have some sort of scale and put all their bad works on one side and all the good works on the other with the one with the most determining Heaven or Hell.

Things someone MIGHT say when they believe in works salvation:

“I try to be a good person, I think God will respect that.”
“Of course I’ll go to heaven! It’s not like I killed anyone!”
“I claim to be an athiest because I wouldn’t want my actions to reflect bacly on Jesus, I think God will be happy I made this choice and let me in Heaven.”
“I will probably be in hell, I make too many mistakes.”
“I have sinned too much to ever be forgiven.”

People have actually said each of these things to me. Some I have heard from multiple people. That middle one left me speechless.

 

[sandusky]

It is not a matter of “what else must one do in addition”. This is an erroneous formulation. One must accept and embrace all that God has done. God does not violate man’s free will.

I think part of the reason the arguement ensues is an erroneous concept of “saved”. Jesus and the Apostles never taught that “salvation” was something that happened at a single point in time, once for all time. this is a new invention.

OK.

 

[teadough]

People are saved initially and forever through faith in Christ, and His atoning work. No meritorious, or contributory works of any kind are involved in securing or maintaining salvationD

If faith alone is all that is needed then one should be able to do what they please. If you feel that is not true then whatever you add to that statement is the beginning of works in some sort of fashion no matter what term you decide to use.

Peace Be With You

 

[VociMike]

I would define “works Salvation” as when someons believes that at Judgement, God will have some sort of scale and put all their bad works on one side and all the good works on the other with the one with the most determining Heaven or Hell.

And what would you tell that person? Would you tell them that it didn’t matter how many “bad works” they did, they’re going to heaven? Would you tell them it didn’t matter how many “good works” they did, they’re going to hell? Would you tell them that God will ignore both all their good works and all their bad works? I’m just curious, what would you tell them regarding all the good and bad works of their life?

 

[VociMike]

IMO, you are being dishonest in saying that. Catholics insist that works are necessary for salvation—look at all of the arguments and scripture offered to demonstrate that necessity.

What you have said is simply false.

 

[sandusky]

teadough:

If faith alone is all that is needed then one should be able to do what they please. If you feel that is not true then whatever you add to that statement is the beginning of works in some sort of fashion no matter what term you decide to use.

Then it’s your position that works are necessary for RC salvation?

VociMike:

What you have said is simply false.

Then it’s your position that works are not necessary for RC salvation?

 

[Syele]

And what would you tell that person? Would you tell them that it didn’t matter how many “bad works” they did, they’re going to heaven? Would you tell them it didn’t matter how many “good works” they did, they’re going to hell? Would you tell them that God will ignore both all their good works and all their bad works? I’m just curious, what would you tell them regarding all the good and bad works of their life?

I tell them that there is no works scale like that. I’d tell them that Gods first and most important commandment to everyone is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind.” This is what God expects from us. If we behave nicer than 99% of the people on earth but do not follow that commandment we are going to hell. It’s all nice to be kind and good but God asked us first to Love Him with all we have, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. It is possible to do a nice/good thing but have no love. Love is required for Salvation.

By the same token, If you truly Love someone with all your heart, soul and mind, Do you purposely do things to displease them? No. Good works will naturally flow from a person with real and total love for God first in their lives.

We can argue Faith vs Faith plus works or Catholic Definition of Sanctification vs Protestant version of the same. The Calvinists, Arminians and Catholics can fight out terminology… but in the end the elect in Heaven are the ones who loved God enough to obey Him.

 

[teadough]

I It is possible to do a nice/good thing but have no love. Love is required.

That statement may read differently than intended.

I think of Love as being action. Love can’t always be a feeling. I do things all the time because it is the right thing to do. I love my wife but I really don’t “feel like” cooking for her tomorrow before I leave home to start my 12 hr shift,however,I will because I love her.

 

[Syele]

That statement may read differently than intended.

I think of Love as being action. Love can’t always be a feeling. I do things all the time because it is the right thing to do. I love my wife but I really don’t “feel like” cooking for her tomorrow before I leave home to start my 12 hr shift,however,I will because I love her.

It didn’t read quite right, I went back to edit it and it still didn’t.

I meant love as it is listed “Love God with all your heart soul and mind” I think that repersents way more than a feeling. It’s how you feel, how you act and how you think. It’s doing all things as if you did them for God Himself.

A person can make a commitment to do that and pray to ask forgiveness for not doing it and pray for help in keeping that kind of focus. When I think of “Faith” I think if a belief in God and a Love of that sort, with a desire to do as God commanded. Making such a faith commitment is something only God will know if a person really has done it and really meant it. I do not believe it’s possible to really mean that and really commit to it and then do no works as a result.

 

[teadough]

Then it’s your position that works are necessary for RC salvation?

You can call it what you like but I can’t see how one can just “believe” and then kick back till their dying day and expect something. Don’t get me wrong. I know there are tons of Christians on both sides of the coin who change after they come to believe in Christ. I have no doubts about that at all. However from your point of view you are saying that only Faith is required.

I was an agnostic for years. One day I became a believer in Christ. A couple years later I was in a drug re-hab. I was completely screwed up on drugs and I did a lot of bad things in-between that time,yet I still had faith in Jesus. I was back to how I was when I did not believe in Jesus. At least my actions spoke that way. However never once stopped believing in Jesus during all that tumoil. What happened in my case? Could I have continued on my path till my death and still obtained salvation just because two years earlier I came to believe in Jesus and asked Him to forgive me of my sins and thanked Him for dying for my sins? That makes no sense to me. Jesus did not go through what He did just so I could believe in Him without me feeling the need to do something. If I had continued that path I was on I can only imagine Jesus saying “I never knew you”.

 

[teadough]

It didn’t read quite right, I went back to edit it and it still didn’t.

I meant love as it is listed “Love God with all your heart soul and mind” I think that repersents way more than a feeling. It’s how you feel, how you act and how you think. It’s doing all things as if you did them for God Himself.

A person can make a commitment to do that and pray to ask forgiveness for not doing it and pray for help in keeping that kind of focus. When I think of “Faith” I think if a belief in God and a Love of that sort, with a desire to do as God commanded. Making such a faith commitment is something only God will know if a person really has done it and really meant it. I do not believe it’s possible to really mean that and really commit to it and then do no works as a result.

OK. I got you now. I was not sure if my statement came off the wrong way either. What I said was something on my mind today anyways. I have to remind myself all the time that sometimes love is action.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus never completely revealed everything concerning Himself, or His salvation while
here on earth; the rest was fleshed out after He ascended into heaven, and sent the “helper”
(cf Jn 16:13).

OK. When did the helper get off track, and therefore, Catholics got lost?

If you’ve kept the commandments perfectly “from your youth,” as the young man in the verse you cite claimed he did, then you only lack one thing, as he did—sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor.

So you admit that keeping the commandments and giving to the poor will result in salvation?

However, it must be remembered as well, that there is present within every human being, redeemed, and unredeemed alike, the principle of evil, and sin (Rom 7:21,23); therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the rich young ruler deceived himself when he claimed to have kept all of the commandments of God from his youth (cf Heb 4:15).

Yes, I agree. I think he did not realize that he was attached to his “stuff”. He did not realize that it had become an idol for him. He believed, as did most Jews of his day, that prosperity meant that one was favored by God.

(P.S. Jesus doesn’t need to lead anyone astray; we do that quite well all on our own (cf Is 53:6).

HOw does that happen?

 

[guanophore]

Then it’s your position that works are necessary for RC salvation?[/qutoe]

Not in the sense that you define “works salvation”. There is no such thing as “RC salvation”. There is only the salvation that comes from Christ, by grace, though faith, that no man should boast. I am not sure what “RC salvation” is. probably something you have invented as part of the anti-Catholic tradition which has been taught to you.
sandusky;3293387:

Then it’s your position that works are not necessary

for RC salvation?

Probably in the sense that you define them, yes. Your “definition of works” is clearly contrary to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles., and therefore, does not apply to the understanding of what is needed for salvation. It is probably more consistent with what the Pharisees believed, who rejected the purpose of God.

 

[sandusky]

You can call it what you like but I can’t see how one can just “believe” and then kick back till their dying day and expect something. Don’t get me wrong. I know there are tons of Christians on both sides of the coin who change after they come to believe in Christ. I have no doubts about that at all. However from your point of view you are saying that only Faith is required.

I was an agnostic for years. One day I became a believer in Christ. A couple years later I was in a drug re-hab. I was completely screwed up on drugs and I did a lot of bad things in-between that time,yet I still had faith in Jesus. I was back to how I was when I did not believe in Jesus. At least my actions spoke that way. However never once stopped believing in Jesus during all that tumoil. What happened in my case? Could I have continued on my path till my death and still obtained salvation just because two years earlier I came to believe in Jesus and asked Him to forgive me of my sins and thanked Him for dying for my sins? That makes no sense to me. Jesus did not go through what He did just so I could believe in Him without me feeling the need to do something. If I had continued that path I was on I can only imagine Jesus saying “I never knew you”.

Thanks for sharing that, teadough.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

When did the helper get off track, and therefore, Catholics got lost?

Why do think that anyone’s being lost is the Holy Spirit’s fault? Is that a “new invention?”

guanophore:

So you admit that keeping the commandments and giving to the poor will result in salvation?

If kept perfectly, and done with perfect motive, yes; however, that’s an impossibility.

guanophore:

Yes, I agree. I think he did not realize that he was attached to his “stuff”. He did not realize that it had become an idol for him. He believed, as did most Jews of his day, that prosperity meant that one was favored by God.

You’re confused, guanophore, and have misrepresented what I said; I did not say that the young man was deceived concerning his love for his “stuff;” he clearly, and openly loved his “stuff” more than he loved eternal life. He deceived himself, I said, by believing that he had kept the 10 commandments perfectly from his youth.

guanophore:

HOw does that happen?

You don’t know? I thought you went to seminary.

guanophore:

Not in the sense that you define “works salvation”. There is no such thing as “RC salvation”. There is only the salvation that comes from Christ, by grace, though faith, that no man should boast. I am not sure what “RC salvation” is. probably something you have invented as part of the anti-Catholic tradition which has been taught to you.

Probably in the sense that you define them, yes. Your “definition of works” is clearly contrary to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles., and therefore, does not apply to the understanding of what is needed for salvation. It is probably more consistent with what the Pharisees believed, who rejected the purpose of God.

OK.

 

[Zooey]

All Armianians believe in justification by faith alone. But OSAS Arminians accuse Arminians who don’t believe in OSAS of believing in “works salvation.” If you can lose salvation through sin - a bad “work” - then you don’t really believe in justification by faith alone.

God bless,
Michael

OSAS and Arminian are the opposite of each other!! I’m not entirely sure what groups you mean here, but saying “OSAS Arminian” is like saying “Catholic Baptist”. It makes no sense…

Things someone MIGHT say when they believe in works salvation:

“I try to be a good person, I think God will respect that.”
“Of course I’ll go to heaven! It’s not like I killed anyone!”
“I claim to be an athiest because I wouldn’t want my actions to reflect bacly on Jesus, I think God will be happy I made this choice and let me in Heaven.”
“I will probably be in hell, I make too many mistakes.”
“I have sinned too much to ever be forgiven.”

People have actually said each of these things to me. Some I have heard from multiple people. That middle one left me speechless.

I’ve heard them all, except for that one… Yikes!!
My own favorite “dumbness/works” one was when someone said, “Of course I’m a Christian; I pay my taxes!” I’m still:hypno: mulling that one over…
This is the kind of thing that I mean by “works salvation”, too, though. Not that no works are required; but there are folks who think they can sneer at God all their lives, & its OK–as long as they’re “respectable”…whatever they mean by that…

 

[VociMike]

Then it’s your position that works are not necessary for RC salvation?

If they were then no baby (baptized or otherwise) could ever enter heaven.

 

[guanophore]

OK. I got you now. I was not sure if my statement came off the wrong way either. What I said was something on my mind today anyways. I have to remind myself all the time that sometimes love is action.

The commandment to “bear fruit that befits repentance” is not a “suggestion”.

Matt 3:8-10
8 Bear fruit that befits repentance, 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.