What is works salvation and why will it send people to hell?

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Angainor said:
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48
There’s the answer to your question. That is what you must do to be saved.

Jesus shed his blood for the forgiveness of your sins. There is nothing you need to do, or indeed there is nothing you can do to receive this gift from Jesus. Jesus did this for you because he loves you. Jesus work is sufficient.

What does “forgiveness of sins” mean? It means your sins are forgiven you. You are counted as perfect. Your sins are forgiven.
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OK, so your answer is, one must do nothing to be saved.

Man, that’s what I call easy! I’ve heard of easy believism, but the reality of it never hit me before.

So, among all the people doing nothing, which ones are saved and which ones are not?
 
Angainor said:
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48
There’s the answer to your question. That is what you must do to be saved.

Jesus shed his blood for the forgiveness of your sins. There is nothing you need to do, or indeed there is nothing you can do to receive this gift from Jesus. Jesus did this for you because he loves you. Jesus work is sufficient.

What does “forgiveness of sins” mean? It means your sins are forgiven you. You are counted as perfect. Your sins are forgiven.
Click to expand...
 
Angainor said:
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48
There’s the answer to your question. That is what you must do to be saved.

Jesus shed his blood for the forgiveness of your sins. There is nothing you need to do, or indeed there is nothing you can do to receive this gift from Jesus. Jesus did this for you because he loves you. Jesus work is sufficient.

What does “forgiveness of sins” mean? It means your sins are forgiven you. You are counted as perfect. Your sins are forgiven.
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This is heretical. If you teach a single soul that all they have to do is believe that Jesus saves them without confessing their sins through the Catholic Church I would not want to be in your shoes on the day of your judgement. It is an extremely grave matter for a Lutheran to come into a Catholic forum and start teaching like you represent Catholic doctrine! There should be a forum rule that all non-Catholics must put a statement in their signature identifying themselves as non-Catholic! :mad:

James
 
sandusky said:
As stated, that is an opinion; do you have any biblical support for your opinion?
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Jesus seems to agree with Ellen that belief is a work.

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-30

And throughout the Scriptures are examples of actions that are expected on the part of believers.
sandusky said:
Also, again, ISTM that you are saying that Christ’s sacrifice, plus additional works are required for salvation; is that correct?
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I think the problem might be one of semantics. Jesus and His Apostles did not teach that salvation occurs at one point in time, for all time. Therefore, Catholics understand that salvation has not occurred until perseverance till the end. It might be interesting to see how you explain away these passages.🤷
sandusky said:
Do those works secure salvation—are they necessary for salvation’s maintenance?
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I would contend that they cannot be separated from salvation. They are part of one seamless garment. If one is repentant, then one will bear fruit that befits repentance.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:7-10

We are not just saved to get saved, but so that we can demonstrate God’s workmanship to the world. The good works in which we walk are based in grace, and proceed from faith. They cannot be separated from the grace upon which they are built. Saving faith results in good works, and we should walk in them. This is something that we choose to do.
 
heisenburg said:
Ultimately, what a Catholic means by saying work, really means obedience.

Obedience doesn’t GAIN you anything, but a lack of obedience results in sin, and thus can potentially cause you to loose your very salvation.
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I have to disagree on this point. Much is gained through obedience.

Rom 6:16-17
16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
heisenburg said:
Code: 
However, as mentioned, it must be remembered that anything we do is for God, not us. If we boast, even a little in what we have done, we sin.
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I think it goes even deeper than this. I think if any act is not based in grace, through faith, then it is a work of the flesh.
 
sandusky said:
Thanks heisenburg; I’m going to take the statement above that I’ve bolded and colored as your answer. Even with the qualifications you offer, that statement is the bottom line—it’s a sin not to do works, and sin leads to a loss of justification/salvation in your soteriology.

I’ll stay with my understanding of your soteriology: it is salvation by cooperation, which is not salvation by grace. (cf my posts #s 32, 41).
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No, I think not, sandusky. I think you really have no clear understanding of Catholic soteriology. Salvation according to Apostolic Teaching depends upon whether one is in or out of a state of grace. One enters this state for the first time at baptism, and after that there are any number of factors involved in whether or not one remains in that state of grace, or after falling from it, is restored. For those of Apostolic faiths, “salvation” is not something that one “owns” for all time. It is a state of being, not a posession.
 
VociMike said:
Yes, of course. So what you said is incorrect. One does not need to be perfect (at least, not in this life) to be saved. But how is that on topic?
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You do need to be perfect. This is what was so astonishing to the disciples that they asked, “then who can be saved.”

What do you need to do to get into heaven?
Be perfect.

The conclusion is I simply cannot do what is needed to be done to get into heaven.
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Mark 10:17-22

Jesus let the man go. Do you understand the significance? That is a huge point. This is Jesus we are talking about here. Jesus loves the man, wants him to be saved, yet he let him go. Jesus had to let him go. There is no answer to the question “what must I do” that is within the rich man’s ability to accomplish.

If there was something the rich man could have done to inherit eternal life, there would have been no need for Jesus to come. It is the sick that is in need of a physician. The rich man is sick. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He died for us when we were unable to save ourselves. He died for the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins means the forgiveness of everything that makes a person imperfect. The sins are forgiven. The person is counted perfect. Forgiveness of sins is a gift. It is a gift that is given through the absolution given through the office of the keys. It is the gift of the forgiveness of sins that is given through the body and blood of the sacrament. Eat and drink.
 
sandusky said:
Do those works secure salvation—are they necessary for salvation’s maintenance?
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Maybe a little scripture will be helpful.

Romans 6:22-23
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Think about this passage.

The wages of sin is death.
This is what we do.

but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is what God does.
 
Angainor said:
You do need to be perfect. This is what was so astonishing to the disciples that they asked, “then who can be saved.”

What do you need to do to get into heaven?
Be perfect.

The conclusion is I simply cannot do what is needed to be done to get into heaven.
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The conclusion from this then is that we should all just sit around and hope we get saved. Is that the Christian approach?

Certainly, then, there should be no evangelization. Is that the Christian approach? Is that the historical Christian approach?
 
VociMike said:
The conclusion from this then is that we should all just sit around and hope we get saved. Is that the Christian approach?

Certainly, then, there should be no evangelization. Is that the Christian approach? Is that the historical Christian approach?
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Nobody needs to sit around and hope they are saved. They can trust Jesus’ promise that sins really are forgiven through the gifts offered through the Church. The bread and wine of the sacrament really were shed for the forgiveness of sin. People can trust that with confidence.

People need to know Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins. Evangelization is spreading the good news that Christ did just that. People need to know about the free gifts offered through the Church.
 
Angainor said:
Nobody needs to sit around and hope they are saved. They can trust Jesus’ promise that sins really are forgiven through the gifts offered through the Church. The bread and wine of the sacrament really were shed for the forgiveness of sin. People can trust that with confidence.

People need to know Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins. Evangelization is spreading the good news that Christ did just that. People need to know about the free gifts offered through the Church.
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Wait a minute. You are talking about things to do. Trusting is something we do. Knowing is something we do. But I thought you said there is nothing we can do.

So I’m back to square one. When I asked “what can one do to be saved” you said, essentially, nothing. But now you’ve said things which aren’t nothing. Which is it?

Can people be saved if they don’t trust, don’t know? If not then obviously these things are things people must do to be saved. If they can be saved anyway then they are not necessary and I’m not sure why you brought them up. Which is it?

And again, why should any Christian bother to evangelize? Why should anybody bother to do anything, if nothing they do can affect their salvation?
 
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Angainor:
You do need to be perfect. This is what was so astonishing to the disciples that they asked, “then who can be saved.”

What do you need to do to get into heaven?
Be perfect.

The conclusion is I simply cannot do what is needed to be done to get into heaven.
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Mark 10:17-22
Jesus let the man go. Do you understand the significance? That is a huge point. This is Jesus we are talking about here. Jesus loves the man, wants him to be saved, yet he let him go. Jesus had to let him go. There is no answer to the question “what must I do” that is within the rich man’s ability to accomplish.

If there was something the rich man could have done to inherit eternal life, there would have been no need for Jesus to come. It is the sick that is in need of a physician. The rich man is sick. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He died for us when we were unable to save ourselves. He died for the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins means the forgiveness of everything that makes a person imperfect. The sins are forgiven. The person is counted perfect. Forgiveness of sins is a gift. It is a gift that is given through the absolution given through the office of the keys. It is the gift of the forgiveness of sins that is given through the body and blood of the sacrament. Eat and drink.
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Well stated.

[SIGN]AMEN!![/SIGN]
 
VociMike said:
Wait a minute. You are talking about things to do. Trusting is something we do. Knowing is something we do. But I thought you said there is nothing we can do.
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Would that be considered an accomplishment? Would trusting Superman if he told you he wasn’t going to drop you as long as you don’t struggle and thrash around be an accomplishment that saved you from falling to your death?

Ultimately even those things are not in our power to do.The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,
2 Corinthians 3:5
Any trust we have in God, any faith we have, even that cannot be claimed as an accomplishment of ours.I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
John 15:5
So, why evangelize? The individual cannot accomplish anything towards his own salvation. The Church, however, can play a role. The Church is also a gift. If faith does not come from within ourselves because the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit, where does it come from?One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
Acts 16:14
The faith of Lydia was a work of the Lord that came about after she heard the gospel being preached.So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:17
Can people be saved if they don’t trust, don’t know?
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Why do you ask? Forgiveness of sins for salvation is offered freely through Christ. I want people to trust and to know that. People cannot claim any accomplishments affecting their salvation, but they can actively reject it. If Superman is flying with you in his arms, you can choose not to trust him and thrash around in a panic such that he will drop you. Does that mean that trusting him enough not to thrash around is an accomplishment?
Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!
For he is our God,
and we are the people of his pasture,
and the sheep of his hand.
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts, as at Meribah,
as on the day at Massah in the wilderness,
Psalm 95:6-8
[sign]See also[/sign]
 
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guanophore:
Jesus seems to agree with Ellen that belief is a work.

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-30

And throughout the Scriptures are examples of actions that are expected on the part of believers.
Click to expand...
This is the same question that the Rich Young Ruler posed to Christ, but, you can’t see it. :nope:

”What must WE DO…”

In v27, Jesus makes it clear that it’s not something WE DO; with respect to eternal life; rather, it’s something GOD DOES—…eternal life which the Son of Man will give…(v 27)

They miss that, so when in v28 they ask Jesus what they must do, He tells them they must believe in Him whom the Father has sent; but it’s impossible for men to do that—it’s impossible for men to believe.

Why? Read through the rest of the chapter, and you’ll find out one of the reasons why it’s impossible for men to believe; if you can’t find it, ask me, and I’ll show it, and explain it
to you. 🙂

Faith is not a work; Eph 2:8 makes that clear; to insist that faith is a work, demonstrates one’s rebellion toward God, and His word, IMO.
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guanophore:
I think the problem might be one of semantics. Jesus and His Apostles did not teach that salvation occurs at one point in time, for all time. Therefore, Catholics understand that salvation has not occurred until perseverance till the end. It might be interesting to see how you explain away these passages.
Click to expand...
Eph 2:8, the perfect, passive, participle, makes it clear that salvation is a one time event, with continuous results; furthermore, the verb is passive, meaning that salvation is not something WE DO,, but that salvation is something that is done TO US.

BTW, that is the same construction (perfect, passive, participle), that is used of Mary in
Lk 1:28—kekaritōmene (is this connecting any dots for any of you?) 🙂
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guanophore:
I would contend that they cannot be separated from salvation. They are part of one seamless garment. If one is repentant, then one will bear fruit that befits repentance.
Click to expand...
A non-issue; the issue is whether or not your works are in any way meritorious, or contributory to salvation.
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guanophore:
No, I think not, sandusky. I think you really have no clear understanding of Catholic soteriology. Salvation according to Apostolic Teaching depends upon whether one is in or out of a state of grace. One enters this state for the first time at baptism, and after that there are any number of factors involved in whether or not one remains in that state of grace, or after falling from it, is restored. For those of Apostolic faiths, “salvation” is not something that one “owns” for all time. It is a state of being, not a posession.
Click to expand...
Answered above.
 
Angainor, I’m still having trouble understanding whether we must do something or nothing to be saved. Perhaps if I worded the question differently it would help. Which of these is true?

a) Nothing is required of us to be saved.

b) Something is required of us to be saved.
 
VociMike said:
Angainor, I’m still having trouble understanding whether we must do something or nothing to be saved. Perhaps if I worded the question differently it would help. Which of these is true?

a) Nothing is required of us to be saved.

b) Something is required of us to be saved.
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The answer is forever and eternally (b). You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. That is the grand conclusion to the sermon on the mount. Those are the entrance requirements.

By grace, Jesus offers forgiveness of our imperfections that would otherwise keep us out of heaven. There are no requirements that are within our power to fulfill, therefore this forgiveness is offered freely. All requirements have been fulfilled by Jesus. There is no requirement someone can boast to themselves as fulfilling, unless they are perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect, which they aren’t.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 2:8-9
 
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