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marywarfield
Guest
Actually once you reject the Apostolic Churches,
aren’t you pretty much toast anyway unless you
come round?
- Status
aren’t you pretty much toast anyway unless you
come round?
po18guy
Well-known member
We have programs for “At risk youth” but what about at risk adults?
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Ed_Silvia
Guest
About 40 years ago a JW came to my door to witness. I asked him to confirm that he did not believe in the divinity of Christ and he did. I asked to look at his bible and I turned to John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Even in his Bible it was capital God. He was speechless and said he would have to report that to his elders.
Recently a well dressed young JW man came to my door and asked me if I know who God is to start the conversation. After a bit I asked him if he believed that the dead are asleep and he confirmed that. I mentioned Matthew 17:33 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. And I asked if Moses was dead what could he and Jesus possibly be talking about, shouldn’t he be asleep? He was speechless.
As has been mentioned we are considered idolatrous by them and they hairaticial by us.
Recently a well dressed young JW man came to my door and asked me if I know who God is to start the conversation. After a bit I asked him if he believed that the dead are asleep and he confirmed that. I mentioned Matthew 17:33 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. And I asked if Moses was dead what could he and Jesus possibly be talking about, shouldn’t he be asleep? He was speechless.
As has been mentioned we are considered idolatrous by them and they hairaticial by us.
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SteveVH
Guest
You will have to define what you mean by “Orthodox”. I don’t want to go too far in this direction as this thread concerns JW’s, but anyone who rejects the apostolic faith given to the one Church founded by Christ cannot, by definition, be “orthodox” in their beliefs. Do they acknowledge the seven sacraments; believe in the real presence, etc.? I very seriously doubt it.
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SteveVH
Guest
You must have run into a JW who did not know his faith very well. They have answers to both of these points, and more. In the case of Thomas they will tell you that it is a translation problem and that his words did not mean that he thought Jesus was, in fact, God, but rather it was a term of respect.
Regardless of the validity of their answers, they do have answers. No one should approach them with the attitude that all we have to do is point out Bible verses and they will all of a sudden become “speechless”, as if they had never seen them before. They are well trained to address verses which refer to Jesus as God.
By the way, I don’t believe that JW’s have any particular or unusual problems with their hair. The term is heretical.
Peace.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
Yes. And then, after the 1000 years are ended, you will be tested again. If you pass the final test, then, and only then, will you be considered worthy to gain eternal life. Those who have a heavenly calling, by the way, only have to prove faithful in this life until they die. Because they have to give up ever being a human again (as if heavenly life is some sort of sacrifice they are undergoing), the 144,000 don’t have to undergo such extra testing.
Only those Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing with the congregation AND free of any secret sins that God knows of, will survive Armageddon.
A “secret sin” can be something you mistakenly do on account of weakness, but according to Watchtower theology you will still be held accountable for it by God. All sins, public and private, require “fruits of repentance” in the JW world, and according to their theology this proof of contrition takes time. Therefore if one has not fully satisfied God by the time Armageddon strikes, you are likely to be destroyed with other non-JWs. Sins which require such proof of repentance can be as little as laughing at an off-color joke or harboring a doubt against something in the religion.
It depends. As noted above, unless the person has thoroughly repented of their wrongdoing or properly corrected their failings, no forgiveness takes place. And if you haven’t got things in line by the time God comes to destroy everybody else–well, that’s just too late for you.
They do attribute mercy to God, however. So each case has to be treated on its own merits. But I do know from personal experience and speaking with many JWs from across the United States that many constantly dread that they might stumble at the “wrong time,” which could theoretically, according to their own teaching, mark them as deserving of adverse judgment.
When a Jehovah’s Witness sins, and the sin is something the Watchtower has declared to be a serious sin, one is supposed to report themselves to the elders.
This is not a sacramental reconciliation, however. This is a “telling” or “snitching” on oneself. The reason one must do this has to do with the way they interpret Joshua chapter 7.
If you recall, this is where Achan takes some of the plunder from Jericho for himself, hiding it under his tent instead of offering it to God as the Israelites were instructed. This results in the Israelites being collectively punished by God, and once Achan is discovered to be the reason for this punishment, Achan himself suffers being stoned to death for his actions.
The JW theology on this is that God might bring adverse judgment on others for sins you commit, even private ones, and this could result in entire families or even the congregation you belong to from living through Armageddon when it strikes. Unlike Achan who attempted to hide what he did, Jehovah’s Witnesses are instructed that they must reveal even their most secret sins by reporting these to their congregation elders.
This would include reporting most of the sins considered mortal in Catholicism,* except that the elders will generally mark the record of the congregant (that’s right–they have a profile on each person and will list your serious sins) imposing discipline or penance upon them as a result. Their permanent JW record will reflect if and how well they followed the direction to repent (such as how long it took for them to do what was asked). and what elders were involved in disciplining the individual (serious sins usually require a special meeting of several elders where you have to spill your guts about all the sinful details, even if you did it before to another elder). Some sins and certain types of discipline require sending special forms to world headquarters too (go figure).
Discipline can be anything from not being allowed to participate in meetings by giving answers for six months or more, not being allowed to say public prayers, and up to and including being publicly shunned for a year or more. One must still attend all meetings and engage in the public ministry, being exemplary in meeting attendance and quantity of hours in the preaching work.
If the elders or anyone sees you do anything they might consider to be a sin, you can still be brought before a group of elders for a disciplinary meeting on the basis of the report. In such a case investigations will take place and you may have to meet before the elders on many occasions before anything gets settled.
- There are other sins, unique to the JWs, that would be considered serious in their world but there are too many to list here.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
You are correct.
To add to the Watchtower interpretation on Thomas’s exclamation, they also believe that when Thomas said “my Lord and my God” he was likely taking the Lord’s name in vain, such as one would say OMG! today.
It is a weak explanation and goes against all logic, but it is the one the JWs accept the most.
The other explanation you mention, that Thomas was calling Jesus “God” in the sense that Jesus was used by God to create Thomas, and for some reason Thomas takes this particular moment to attribute this to Jesus, is met with some confusion with many Witnesses. But they will parrot it off, just the same because they are told to do so.
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andrewstx
Guest
I used the lower case ‘o’ for orthodox, not a capital “o”. To me orthodox in that case means believing in the Holy Trinity and not specifically Latin Catholic.
Latin Catholics are not the only ones who believe in the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
I think that perhaps you may be using the word orthodox in a overly strict manner.
For my ideas about orthodox belief in the Holy Trinity I would direct you to the Athanasian creed.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
What do ex-Witnesses say about their former beliefs? How did their minds change?
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dronald
Guest
Isn’t DelsonJacobs?
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
I see my time in the Watchtower as part of my growing up experience, being that I was not an adult when I went to my first Kingdom Hall. I still saw things in black-and-white as I was in my teens then, and the Witnesses prize this type of compartmentalization in people, encouraging those who have an intolerance of ambiguity to remain as they are and to demand answers to everything or accept nothing.
But I eventually grew up enough and got to the point where I could see that life, religion, and humanity in general was not what the JW religion taught me it was. I would also have various experiences in life that could not be easily compartmentalized like they said everything should, and I learned to welcome the fact that life is often ambiguous–one has to embrace the mystery of life and accept that, unlike what they teach, faith can and often does exist side-by-side with doubt.
I must admit that I was somewhat of a misshapen peg that would not fit into any gap they tried with me. I grew up speaking Hebrew and therefore saw mistakes in many of their teachings. I would challenge things and stand up, unafraid to ask questions. I would also be undergo an intelligence assessment in association with my employment that brought unwelcome news to the elders in my congregation, namely a WAIS score that said I was Mensa material. I was immediately made the target of jealous elders when this private information came out, and this helped me see things with even more clarity in the end.
My story is not a common one. I have met many ex-JWs, and while some “wake up,” others do not. It seems that if a person wants to compartmentalize life and has an intolerance for the ambiguity of life they carry this through the Witnesses (who again take advantage of such a personality) and, if they leave, emerge the same compartmentalizing person they were to begin with.
Some claim they were brainwashed, which is why they accepted the Watchtower teachings but others claim that no brainwashing occurs at all, claiming they were either so uneducated about things that they accepted what they were told, not knowing any better. Some want back in, desperately, unable to cope in a world that doesn’t tell them what to do, how to dress, what to think, etc. as the Governing Body used to do for them.
Many, though not all, of the ex-JWs I know tend to be “either/or”–some reasoning that since the religion of the Watchtower was false that therefore all religion is equally false or they carry away some Watchtower teachings with them and are stuck trying to calculate by themselves when the end of the world is going to come, a few embracing the idea that they still have the “only truth,” but that it is without the Watchtower.
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Pronger1
Guest
I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness and was a member until the age of 20 when I was “disfellowshipped”. During my teen years, I would spend parts of summer vacation as an auxiliary pioneer, which at the time meant a minimum of 60 hours a month going door to door.
My father, for many of those years, was an elder and presiding overseer of the congregation.
In the time since I was disfellowshipped, I came to study many aspects of their belief system critically in a manner that would not be permitted as a JW. In the late 1990s, I was labeled an apostate and actually had my username of “Pronger1” added to an online apostate list being maintained by some Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their belief is that an apostate is one who turns against the teachings of the Watchtower Society. To them that is equal to turning of one’s back on God.
I was labeled an apostate for standing up against their beliefs that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE, even though all archaeological evidence points to 587/586 BCE. 607 BCE is critical to their faith. They use some twisted calculations from Daniel to arrive at 1914 for the invisible return of Christ and the end of the Gentile Times. From this and the 3 1/2 years imprisonment of Bible Student leaders (they weren’t JWs at the time) they believe that Jesus examined their faith and found them worthy of being the Faithful & Discreet slave.
All of that falls apart if they accept secular chronology of the fall of Jerusalem. Another point is that Charles Taze Russell isn’t really the true founder of their beliefs. That really belongs to Judge Rutherford who wrestled power away from those who Russell willed to control the Watchtower Society after his death. This caused a major schism within their religion, with many splitting and continuing to follow Russell’s teachings while others continued on now named Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer believe most of Russell’s teachings.
As for myself, I am spiritually adrift, searching for answers. In recent months I have begun studying the teachings of Catholicism on my own by lurking on this board and through books. I don’t know what course that will take me, but I hope I find the right path.
Even after being away from Jehovah’s Witnesses for 17 years at times I still go through periods of intense anxiety over fears of God killing me at any moment in Armageddon.
My father, for many of those years, was an elder and presiding overseer of the congregation.
In the time since I was disfellowshipped, I came to study many aspects of their belief system critically in a manner that would not be permitted as a JW. In the late 1990s, I was labeled an apostate and actually had my username of “Pronger1” added to an online apostate list being maintained by some Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their belief is that an apostate is one who turns against the teachings of the Watchtower Society. To them that is equal to turning of one’s back on God.
I was labeled an apostate for standing up against their beliefs that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE, even though all archaeological evidence points to 587/586 BCE. 607 BCE is critical to their faith. They use some twisted calculations from Daniel to arrive at 1914 for the invisible return of Christ and the end of the Gentile Times. From this and the 3 1/2 years imprisonment of Bible Student leaders (they weren’t JWs at the time) they believe that Jesus examined their faith and found them worthy of being the Faithful & Discreet slave.
All of that falls apart if they accept secular chronology of the fall of Jerusalem. Another point is that Charles Taze Russell isn’t really the true founder of their beliefs. That really belongs to Judge Rutherford who wrestled power away from those who Russell willed to control the Watchtower Society after his death. This caused a major schism within their religion, with many splitting and continuing to follow Russell’s teachings while others continued on now named Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer believe most of Russell’s teachings.
As for myself, I am spiritually adrift, searching for answers. In recent months I have begun studying the teachings of Catholicism on my own by lurking on this board and through books. I don’t know what course that will take me, but I hope I find the right path.
Even after being away from Jehovah’s Witnesses for 17 years at times I still go through periods of intense anxiety over fears of God killing me at any moment in Armageddon.
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adf417
Guest
Child of God, welcome to CAF and our loving Christian community. I pray your journey is calm and genuinely fruitful. Please don’t hesitate to ask questions, test the spirit, and if you are ever pressured then something is probably wrong…
Peace and the love of God be with you!!!
po18guy
Well-known member
Welcome! In the Catholic (And Orthodox) Christian faiths, we have the Sacraments, which are channels of God’s grace. Faith, baptism, and frequent reception of the Sacraments (confession/reconciliation & the Holy Eucharist) will remove all such fear. Think of this: the 20th century was by far the bloodiest in human history. If God were so vengeful, I don’t think any of us would be here - I don’t think He would have sent His Son to suffer and die so that we might be with Him.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Right, thanks…I understand that, but perhaps should have said is there a web site for ‘ex-JWs’ as there seems to be for former Mormons?
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ShanPO
Guest
How does one know if he or she is part of the 144,000? Historically, are there people who they can look to and say “Yep, he’s in that number?” Take, for example, the Transfiguration of Christ. Moses and Elijah were speaking to Jesus. Would they look at that and say, “OK, those are two guys who were important in the history of Judaism and ultimately Christianity, and they came from somewhere to have a chat with Jesus, so, really there’s only room for 143,998, because certainly those guys are up there.”
What would happen if one says they’re part of the 144,000?
Since in the Bible, the imagery in Revalation is mostly men, are no women part of the 144,000?
And finally, since the JW’s enjoy changing their teachings like I change my socks, could one day a person who’s passed be part of the 144,000 and then not? Like maybe someone says Paul is part of the 144k, but then someone realizes that he used to persecute Christians, so he’s out. Do they go back and forth over who has made it and who hasn’t?
My experience is that the Witnesses use the term “orthodox Christianity” to refer to “mainstream” Christian groups that accept the main doctrines that the Witnesses do not (deith of Christ, immortal soul, eternal punishment).
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
Greetings, Pronger1. I am so glad that you are here. I truly understand and appreciate where you are coming from. I hope you find that beacon you are looking for as you drift the waters of insight and investigation.
That “Armageddon anxiety” was with me too after I left, and it loomed like a literal weight for a couple of years (and I wasn’t raised in the Organization, so I can only imagine it is a bit more intense for you). But it did vanish, and suddenly I might add.
First, I can say that I truly understand the meaning of the analogy when people say “it was like a great weight was lifted off my shoulders.” When I suddenly realized that the anxiety was gone I literally sat up straighter and felt physically lighter at that very moment.
While I am sure it may be happening to you in stages, I think you will reach that point too. Unlike the Governing Body who would characteristically offer you an outline of what to expect, I can only say it will occur for you in the way and in the time it needs to. Something may trigger it or, like me, you will suddenly realize you can say to yourself: “God is not going to punish me for leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses” and believe yourself at the same time.
It is a shame that the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses does not honor or respect those who have the courage to stand up with facts that may challenge the Governing Body. You can’t even hold on to “past truths” once held dear in order to preserve their doctrinal heritage because each new Governing Body swoops in to take the religion in its own direction once the death of a major member occurs (I wonder what will change now that Guy Pierce has passed–he’s rumored to have been behind the recent changes attempting to make the JWs believe more like mainstream Christianity).
Even if you do not choose to become a Roman Catholic, you are always welcome here and wherever Catholics are found. Despite some online debates here on CAF, you will find that they generally occur as part of the spirit of discussion, and that your differences of understanding and personal convictions and unique insights are readily embraced and encouraged.
On top of that, I am very pleased to meet you and hope to hear more from you in the coming days.
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DelsonJacobs
Guest
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not use the term “orthodox Christianity” to describe mainstream Christian groups and churches. Instead they mistakenly use the term “Christendom” for this.
The term “Christendom” actually refers to the worldwide community of those who claim belief in Christ despite denominational differences, and more exactly it refers to the community of political powers that once considered themselves as “Christian nations” until the geopolitical scene changed to adopt a more secular paradigm in the 18th century.
As with many other things, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a habit of redefining or using English terms as if they’ve never cracked open a dictionary or paid attention to a history class in high school. This is but one of the many examples of them misdefining terms.
Unfortunately, they do use the word “orthodox” but in reference to* themselves*. They claim that since in their minds they are the only ones who follow Scripture correctly, that their religion is therefore the “orthodox” standard by which others should be measured.
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Pronger1
Guest
How someone becomes a part of the 144,000 is very informal. There are no proofs to the congregation other than the member claims to be and begins to partake of the wine and bread at the once a year Memorial of the Last Supper.
Typically of someone who claims to be of the 144,000, they say it came to them by means of the Holy Spirit and they just know they have a heavenly calling.
No one loses their status of being in the 144,000 as far as I know except through apostasy. An example of this is the former Governing Body member Raymond Franz. He was tasked in writing an encyclopedia of Bible teachings and found many of the Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs to be wrong. Raymond Franz was basically forced out of the headquarters and later was disfellowshipped for having a meal with a friend who disassociated from the religion.
Raymond Franz is basically considered a modern day Judas by Jehovah’s Witnesses as he published two books. One primarily on his life experiences, time on the Governing Body, and the witch hunt around 1980 at the headquarters to weed out those who started developing beliefs that didn’t match the official teachings. The second book was about Christian freedom railing against a legalistic approach.
- Status