What ISIS Really Wants

[Darryl1958]

This is a point that often gets overlooked. The most dangerous enemy of most Muslims is other Muslims.

No one is immune. Irshad Manji constantly receives death threats, just for writing a semi-bographical book on her experiences growing up Muslim on the West Coast of Canada.

It is important to note that the bigots are not those who criticize Islam, for in doing so, what they are doing is giving decent Muslims like Irshad moral support. The bigots are those who assume that it is Islamist organizations that are the ones who speak for Muslims, and are the organizations that must be appeased with platitudes, thereby leaving liberalizing Muslims stranded and blowing in the wind.

 

[Mark121359]

What does Isis really want? According to this article quoting the State Department?..it’s jobs!

“We’re killing a lot of them, and we’re going to keep killing more of them. … But we cannot win this war by killing them,” department spokeswoman Marie Harf said on MSNBC’s “Hardball.” “We need … to go after the root causes that leads people to join these groups, whether it’s lack of opportunity for jobs, whether --”

At that point, Harf was interrupted by host Chris Matthews, who pointed out, “There’s always going to be poor people. There’s always going to be poor Muslims.”

Harf continued to argue that the U.S. should work with other countries to “help improve their governance” and “help them build their economies so they can have job opportunities for these people.”

What a pinhead!

Peace, Mark

 

[Trader]

It is not a problem with Jews. There is no case of anyone ever arguing anybody else to death.

On the other hand, the largest number of victims of murdering Islamists have always been other Muslims, who do not believe the right way.

University professors get chucked out of windows and forced to divorce their Muslim wives due to their apostacy, whether their wives agree or not.

It may not be a big problem with Jews, since getting ones ears talked off is just figurative language after all.
It is a heckuva big problem for Muslims though, because of the issue of blood being spilled in large quantities due to these kinds of disagreements.

While Jews are not unified under a single authority like the recoginzed authority of the popes and bishops, both Christians and Jews, as well as many other faiths and non-faiths are unified by belief in human reason. Christians and Jews learn early in Genesis that we are made in the image and likeness of God. One of the primary similarities between God and his greatest creatures, angels and humans, is that we possess the ability to reason. We have equal dignity and have responsibilites to each other because all men are created by God in His image. For many centuries, both mainstream and radical Islam have rejected human reason as having authority. In fact, repeating those very basic beliefs found in Genesis can get you killed as a blasphemer in Muslim countries.

How do you create a dialog with people who reject reason and value death more than life? We had the same problem with Japanese suicide pilots at the end of WWII. They had no chance of winning the war, or of surviving the battle, but they did not care.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Throughout all of Monday and into this morning, MSNBC had done what the Obama White House has refused: correctly identify the 21 men beheaded at the hands of ISIS as Christians. During Monday’s primetime hours, anchors Ed Schultz and Chris Matthews would reveal an even wider (and completely unexpected) break with Obama.

It is not difficult to imagine the self-righteous frenzy that would be taking place across the left-wing MSNBC and the even more left-wing CNN had Bill O’Reilly, Sarah Palin, Ted Cruz, or anyone who ever admitted to enjoying an episode of “Duck Dynasty” declared that the war with ISIS is a “religious war.” Lucky for MSNBC’s Ed Schultz he is MSNBC’s Ed Schultz, because that is exactly what he said Monday.

The weekend beheading of 21 innocent Egyptian Coptic Christians at the hands of ISIS, and the White House’s utter military and rhetorical fecklessness in the face of this atrocity, appears to be too much water for even Ed Schultz to carry. Schultz not only broke with the White House by correctly identifying the war with ISIS as a “religious war,” he criticized the White House’s latest war plan, which foolishly assures ISIS we won’t use ground troops.

Good for Ed Schultz. If there was ever a time for moral clarity, this is it. And he showed some:

—

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.breitbart.com%2Fbig-journalism%2F2015%2F02%2F17%2Fmsnbc-breaks-with-obama-on-isis-religious-war-america-morally-humiliated%2F&ei=a1jkVMPlFoHlggT5h4HABg&usg=AFQjCNGjpkrUmQzJ_HVWVjalf_WWBJs-nQ

 

[GaryTaylor]

“We abandoned the Libyan people as prisoners to extremist militias,” the Egyptian president said.

“There is no other choice, taking into account the agreement of the Libyan people and government and that they call on us to act,” he told France’s Europe 1 radio in an interview aired on Tuesday. “We have to work together to defeat terrorism.”

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDUQqQIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2F2015%2F02%2F17%2Fus-mideast-crisis-libya-egypt-idUSKBN0LL0GA20150217&ei=iFzkVMLXOpPtggTNzoC4Cg&usg=AFQjCNGH8AXciSSxBLF1wdeQvW9g5IcIdA

By its seaside slaughter of 21 Egyptian Christians, Isis has brought ex-Field Marshal President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi into the war against it. And by burning Jordan’s captured pilot alive, it provoked 56 more air strikes from Jordan, a return to action by the UAE and a flight of Bahraini jets to Amman to help in the struggle. In what is almost a sideshow, Libya’s air force – supporting one of its country’s two rival governments – continues to bomb Isis fighters, but now in co-operation with Egypt. Independent

 

[Darryl1958]

The one good thing of Americans electing such a feckless president, twice, is that the rest of the world now realizes that fighting Islamist jihadism has to be their responsibility too.

Americans have amply demonstrated that they are not up to the task of fighting such a war.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The one good thing of Americans electing such a feckless president, twice, is that the rest of the world now realizes that fighting Islamist jihadism has to be their responsibility too.

Americans have amply demonstrated that they are not up to the task of fighting such a war.

Its amazing this is allowed to go on. America has a renegade President. Imho he needs go and ASAP. Usually how things get done here too, people get sick and tired and democracy is applied. I’d just assume he just be quiet and leave in 18mths, but I see he’s going out with a bang. He said it today “expect a fight” .

 

[Ender]

There is criteria for being deemed a Caliph. The leader of ISIS hasn’t met those used by Sunni Islam (Shia Islam has different criteria).

From the article being cited:

• To be the caliph, one must meet conditions outlined in **Sunni **law—being a Muslim adult man of Quraysh descent; exhibiting moral probity and physical and mental integrity; and having ’amr, or authority. This last criterion, Cerantonio said, is the hardest to fulfill, and requires that the caliph have territory in which he can enforce Islamic law.
  *Ender

 

[sallybutler]

I will admit that I don’t understand end-timers, be they Christian or Muslim. Why do these people think they have to help God/Allah? It is almost as if they don’t trust the Almighty.

 

[Ender]

The type of Islam espoused by ISIS is really no different than the one espoused by those who fought the Crusaders, or those who conquered and sacked Spain and tried to do the same to France, or even the “prophet” Muhammed himself.

Exactly. It may be 7th century Islam, but what is the reason for believing that the actions of the “prophet” himself don’t define what Islam is?The Koran specifies crucifixion as one of the only punishments permitted for enemies of Islam. The tax on Christians finds clear endorsement in the Surah Al-Tawba, the Koran’s ninth chapter, which instructs Muslims to fight Christians and Jews “until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” The Prophet, whom all Muslims consider exemplary, imposed these rules and owned slaves.

Leaders of the Islamic State have taken emulation of Muhammad as strict duty, and have revived traditions that have been dormant for hundreds of years. “What’s striking about them is not just the literalism, but also the seriousness with which they read these texts,” Haykel said. “There is an assiduous, obsessive seriousness that Muslims don’t normally have.”
Ender

 

[Ender]

One thing is faithfulness to the original and something very different is being able to.convince religious people to turn into beasts. These barbarians are beasts and they already were beastlike or very violent personalities in our 21 st century at the time of being recruited to crucify and behead people and children.Supposedly being “sane”…
This is channelling much individual violence in the name.of religion as well.

The fact that the West no longer takes religion seriously apparently has left them unable to believe that others have a very different perspective on it. I see no reason whatever not to believe ISIS doesn’t mean exactly what it says.* In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”
*Ender

 

[Darryl1958]

Precisely because the Koran is believed by mainstream Islam to have been dictated word by word, directly from a divine source, with no human (name removed by moderator)ut, and precisely because mainstream Islam believes that Mohammed is the last prophet and the seal of prophets who is to be emulated in every way as a role model for the rest of time, reform of Islam to be something other than the literal understanding of |SIS and the Islamists will be an uphill battle to the extreme.
Suffice it to way that literally following in the footsteps of Christ is nothing like following in the footsteps of Mohammed.
And the Bible, while divinely inspired, is also recognized by mainstream Christians as being written by human beings nevertheless, and thereby subject to the limitations that all humans struggle with. And even as some Christians might disagree with that, they do not disagree to the point where witches are now being burned by any sane Christian today anywhere in the world.

 

[graciew]

The fact that the West no longer takes religion seriously apparently has left them unable to believe that others have a very different perspective on it. I see no reason whatever not to believe ISIS doesn’t mean exactly what it says.* In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war*. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”
Ender

Yes,Ender,I agree some can be taking religion seriously. Yet I have no doubt that many of the followers are lost souls who follow for power,for a weapon,for violence,to be " somebody", anything but religion.
This is a strange combo of guerrilla,terrorism,and medieval mindset,and strategy,but it is the 21 st century,and I believe that much of what is going on is not medieval but 21 st century emptiness of values and greed for power and money. Those who will lead the “Caliphate” will not be poor for sure. Those who fund ISIS,either.Those who sell weapons …
It did call my attention in the article that some of the men who recruited through social media spoke about sharia providing healthcare,and basic needs. That is also a21 st century " marketing" .
I can’t find videos I watched about ISIS patrolling,controlling," preaching" …if I do I will post them. they are very visual and help understand much of what I am saying.
I do not have much time these days…
God bless you,Ender.

 

[Pulvis]

This is a well researched, informative article on the truth behind Islamic jihad that many seem to wish to ignore.

"What is the Islamic State?

Where did it come from, and what are its intentions? The simplicity of these questions can be deceiving, and few Western leaders seem to know the answers. In December, The New York Times published confidential comments by Major General Michael K. Nagata, the Special Operations commander for the United States in the Middle East, admitting that he had hardly begun figuring out the Islamic State’s appeal. “We have not defeated the idea,” he said. “We do not even understand the idea.” In the past year, President Obama has referred to the Islamic State, variously, as “not Islamic” and as al-Qaeda’s “jayvee team,” statements that reflected confusion about the group, and may have contributed to significant strategic errors."
theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

[Ender]

I believe that much of what is going on is not medieval but 21 st century emptiness of values and greed for power and money.

Why is it so difficult to accept what these people themselves say? Why should we not simply believe they mean exactly what they are telling us? I brought this up in the context of religious values, which is what they are claiming their actions are based on. On what basis do you claim they aren’t serious about their religion? They certainly seem like true believers to me; I take them at their word.

It did call my attention in the article that some of the men who recruited through social media spoke about sharia providing healthcare,and basic needs. That is also a 21st century “marketing”.

Its roots appear to be deeper than that.Health care, he said, is free. … This provision of social welfare was not, he said, a policy choice of the Islamic State, but a policy obligation inherent in God’s law.
Ender

 

[Pulvis]

Why is it so difficult to accept what these people themselves say? Why should we not simply believe they mean exactly what they are telling us? I brought this up in the context of religious values, which is what they are claiming their actions are based on. On what basis do you claim they aren’t serious about their religion? They certainly seem like true believers to me; I take them at their word.
Its roots appear to be deeper than that.Health care, he said, is free. … This provision of social welfare was not, he said, a policy choice of the Islamic State, but a policy obligation inherent in God’s law.
Ender

Ender, this is what the Atlantic article points to. That the modern westernized world cannot grasp an intellect that accepts, follows and promotes an 7th century ideology. Our romanticized, enlightened world cannot fathom that this barbarism, so out of time, can still be advanced. And not only advanced, but gain such a following. And until the west realizes, and admits the true nature of this, we have no chance of stopping it.

 

[Darryl1958]

Ender, this is what the Atlantic article points to. That the modern westernized world cannot grasp an intellect that accepts, follows and promotes an 7th century ideology. Our romanticized, enlightened world cannot fathom that this barbarism, so out of time, can still be advanced. And not only advanced, but gain such a following. And until the west realizes, and admits the true nature of this, we have no chance of stopping it.

There was one report, for example, of ISIS funding its operation through organ harvesting. One poster rejected it outright on the basis that such barbarians who hacked people to death could not be capable of the intricacies involved in organ harvesting.
The thing is that there are doctors, and highly educated people who find the ideals of ISIS and Islamism very appealing. One ought not to think that highly educated people cannot engage in the most brutal and evil of deeds.
I think that the article talked about ISIS having a special appeal to the alienated among us, males in particular. There is the case of a couple of heroin addicts on trial in my home town right now for plotting a terrorist attack, and this is the kind of people that come to mind when one views what an alienated person might be like.
But institutes of higher learning are filled with alienated young men too, who have no attachments whatsoever to the libertine, politically correct cultures that prevail on campus.
Islamism as a whole has always been a middle and upper middle class movement.

 

[graciew]

Why is it so difficult to accept what these people themselves say? Why should we not simply believe they mean exactly what they are telling us? I brought this up in the context of religious values, which is what they are claiming their actions are based on. On what basis do you claim they aren’t serious about their religion? They certainly seem like true believers to me; I take them at their word.
Its roots appear to be deeper than that.Health care, he said, is free. … This provision of social welfare was not, he said, a policy choice of the Islamic State, but a policy obligation inherent in God’s law.
Ender

I do agree with every word you said and say.
The fact that it is growing exponentially is what I am talking about.

 

[graciew]

There was one report, for example, of ISIS funding its operation through organ harvesting. One poster rejected it outright on the basis that such barbarians who hacked people to death could not be capable of the intricacies involved in organ harvesting.
The thing is that there are doctors, and highly educated people who find the ideals of ISIS and Islamism very appealing. One ought not to think that highly educated people cannot engage in the most brutal and evil of deeds.
I think that the article talked about ISIS having a special appeal to the alienated among us, males in particular. There is the case of a couple of heroin addicts on trial in my home town right now for plotting a terrorist attack, and this is the kind of people that come to mind when one views what an alienated person might be like.
But institutes of higher learning are filled with alienated young men too, who have no attachments whatsoever to the libertine, politically correct cultures that prevail on campus.
Islamism as a whole has always been a middle and upper middle class movement.

Agree. All in all there is not " one type only" of ISIS member.

 

[gilliam]

From the article

One way to un-cast the Islamic State’s spell over its adherents would be to overpower it militarily and occupy the parts of Syria and Iraq now under caliphate rule. Al‑Qaeda is ineradicable because it can survive, cockroach-like, by going underground. The Islamic State cannot. If it loses its grip on its territory in Syria and Iraq, it will cease to be a caliphate. Caliphates cannot exist as underground movements, because territorial authority is a requirement: take away its command of territory, and all those oaths of allegiance are no longer binding. Former pledges could of course continue to attack the West and behead their enemies, as freelancers. But the propaganda value of the caliphate would disappear, and with it the supposed religious duty to immigrate and serve it. If the United States were to invade, the Islamic State’s obsession with battle at Dabiq suggests that it might send vast resources there, as if in a conventional battle. If the state musters at Dabiq in full force, only to be routed, it might never recover.

And yet the risks of escalation are enormous. The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given baya’a to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of ISIS, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?

Given everything we know about the Islamic State, continuing to slowly bleed it, through air strikes and proxy warfare, appears the best of bad military options. Neither the Kurds nor the Shia will ever subdue and control the whole Sunni heartland of Syria and Iraq—they are hated there, and have no appetite for such an adventure anyway. But they can keep the Islamic State from fulfilling its duty to expand. And with every month that it fails to expand, it resembles less the conquering state of the Prophet Muhammad than yet another Middle Eastern government failing to bring prosperity to its people.