What kind of a world would you create, if you had the power?

[Latin]

Sophia:

Could the Virgin Mary become an evil person by choosing to become evil? Obviously not, since to be “good” is the rejection of evil - not just the practicing of evil, but even considering evil, and much less “willing” to become evil.

God created her to be “good”. Did she have “free will”? Obviously yes. So God (or any omnipotent and omniscient creator) can create good people right off the bat, without forcing them to go through “hoops” of learning. Someone might say that Mary was a “special case”, and even God could not create another fundamentally good and incorruptible person, even if he wanted to. But that would be another denial of God’s omnipotence. There is no logical necessity of having only one incorruptible person.

This argument is also based upon catholic teaching. Reject it at your own peril.

God created us all to be good if we so accept it. That qualifier is the part that you are not understanding. He doesn’t make us robots but creatures of free will who have the power to reject Him.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I don’t agree with your above qualifier.
.

I present you Abucs two qualifiers.

1. God’s offer to Eternal Life in heaven coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, it is an offer that NO ONE reject and they are ALL end up in heaven.
2. God’s offer to Eternal Life in heaven coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, it is an offer that NO ONE CAN reject and they are ALL end up in heaven.

.
Please Abucs guess which one is correct qualifier according to Catholic Soteriology, 1. or 2. or both as there is no practical difference between the two?
.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Latin]

It was not an entrapment, and Adam and Eve were not children. They made a free, deliberate, choice to disobey. The eating of the fruit was only how it happened.

God bless you MCH1 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
.
God is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, nothing happen in the Universe without God’s permission, not even a smallest act of sin.
.
We have absolute free will to love and every other area we have a LIMITED free will, we free to do everything God permits us to do, cooperating with us in our actions by providing us the operative power to act and foreordained from all eternity according to His all-embracing purpose, a purpose (plan) which cannot be frustrated.
.

So, the CCC 412 Rightly ask: “But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning?
… and the Exultet sings, O happy fault, … which gained for us so Great a Redeemer! End quote.
.

The truth is: They made a free, deliberate, choice to disobey.

But and there is a BIG BUT, their “fall” is a CRUCIAL part of God’s Eternal Plan/Design for the BENEFIT of the entire human race, a purpose (plan) which cannot be frustrated..

It does not matter how we cut it, for the Benefit of the entire human race (includes their own benefit), God purposely not provided for them the necessary grace which would prevented them from the “fall.”
.

ON THE OTHER HAND
Why the virgin Mary never sinned and said YES to God’s call and why every child/elect of God said/say YES to God’s call to Eternal Life and ALL end up in heaven?

Because God gives them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment.
.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.
THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
.

God bless you MCH1 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[abucs]

God’s offer to Eternal Life in heaven coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, it is an offer that NO ONE reject and they are ALL end up in heaven.

God bless you too Latin.

Could you please write the first option again as I think it is not grammatically correct.

Thank you.

Also the definition of the word “offer” is something that can be accepted or rejected by another.

Regards.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

God’s offer to Eternal Life in heaven coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, it is an offer that NO ONE reject and they are ALL end up in heaven.

God bless you too Latin.

Could you please write the first option again as I think it is not grammatically correct.

Thank you.

Also the definition of the word “offer” is something that can be accepted or rejected by another.

Regards.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I’m sorry about it, I made it simple.

.
I present you Abucs two qualifiers.

1. God’s call to Eternal Life coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, and EVERY God’s child/elect accept it and they all end up in heaven.
2. God’s call to Eternal Life coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, and not even ONE God’s child/elect reject it and they all end up in heaven.
   .

Please Abucs guess which one is correct qualifier according to Catholic Soteriology, 1. or 2. or both as there is no practical difference between the two?
.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[MonteRCMS]

If everyone would have five billion dollars, then the dollar would have no value at all. Inflation would wipe out the purchasing power of the money.

Well, in my design, inflation is not an issue.

 

[Sophia]

Eve and Adam chose to sin, Mary chose not to. She was the new Eve and chose not to sin.

Because she was predestined not to. You keep forgetting that God can predestine anyone to heaven, even though he does not predestine anyone to hell (though he could, if he wanted to).

(Oh, and imitation is the highest form of flattery. Nice of you.)

---

Well, in my design, inflation is not an issue.

Nice. Could you tell us how would you deal with it?

 

[abucs]

Because she was predestined not to. You keep forgetting that God can predestine anyone to heaven, even though he does not predestine anyone to hell (though he could, if he wanted to).

There is a difference between God knowing what your choice will be and you not having the freedom to make the choice.

Choice is made in time.

Time is sequential to us as part of Creation, not necessarily to God outside of Creation.

 

[abucs]

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I’m sorry about it, I made it simple.

.

I present you Abucs two qualifiers.

God’s call to Eternal Life coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, and EVERY God’s child/elect accept it and they all end up in heaven.

God’s call to Eternal Life coming TOTALLY from God’s decision, and not even ONE God’s child/elect reject it and they all end up in heaven.

.

Please Abucs guess which one is correct qualifier according to Catholic Soteriology, 1. or 2. or both as there is no practical difference between the two?

.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I am sorry Latin but I am unable to understand your English.

God bless.

 

[Sophia]

There is a difference between God knowing what your choice will be and you not having the freedom to make the choice.

How true. Just like any competent stage magician can offer you a deck of cards, and urge you to pick a card, any card, and when you exercise your free will to choose the card you want, and it is always, invariably will be the card the magician has written down on a piece of paper, before you made your selection. Amazing… isn’t it?

That is like “predestination”. Giving you the freedom to make the selection that the magician (or God) wants you to make. Of course you are free to make that particular choice… but you are not free to make any other choices.

 

[Latin]

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I’m sorry for my English is not good.
I grown up in Europe in a communist country where English language was a no-no, so officially I never learned English language.
.
This is the reason that in my posts I mostly use citations and with the aid of citations I can communicate with other posters.
.

TO START AT THE BEGINNING
I read the following citation in your post # 146, addressed to Sophia.

Quote: God created us all to be good if we so accept it.
That qualifier is the part that you are not understanding.
He doesn’t make us robots but creatures of free will who have the power to reject Him. End quote.
.
From your above statement I concluded, your QUALIFIER is:
We have the power to ACCEPT God’s call to Eternal Life (which is in Heaven) or we have the power to REJECT God’s call to Eternal Life (which is in Heaven).
.

Now let’s see what the Scripture and the Catholic Soteriology has to say about your above statement/QUALIFIER:

As the results of the “fall,” we all have been born condemned, spiritually dead, slaves of sin, spiritual things foolishness to us and we accept NOTHING form the Spirit of God. – Rom.5:18; Rom.8:6-7; 1 Cor.2:14; etc.
.
At the day of the “fall” we are spiritually died for the spiritual realm, from the program of our memory all spiritual notions wiped out, and the program of the memory of the natural world partly corrupted, but still functional.

TO RECOGNIZE SPIRITUAL CONCEPT FIRST WE NEED A NEW PROGRAM IN OUR MEMORY which connects us with the spiritual realm and INCLUDES: Faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL, etc.
.

Ezekiel 36:25-27;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and cause you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
.

As we see above OUR RECREATION and the NEW PROGRAM IN OUR MEMORY connects us with the spiritual realm and INCLUDES: Faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL, etc. enables us to follow God’s decrees and to be obedient children of God.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

OUR SALVATION IS NOT OUR CHOICE BUT IT IS GOD’S IRREVOCABLE DECISION

Many Christian would be surprised if they would know, to go to Christ in order to be saved is NOT our choice, but it is coming TOTALLY from God’s decision.
.
John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
.
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
.

CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
.

As we see above NO ONE REJECTS GOD’S CALL TO ETERNAL LIFE.
.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

THE AID OF GOD:

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.

.
Furthermore, the way God CAUSES us to FOLLOW HIS DECREES:

God operates in our will by His new program in our memory, of course this program includes our limited free will as well, only God has absolute free will, and those who are already in heaven, because their free will is in 100% line with God’s will.
.
AFTER OUR RECREATION and JUSTIFICATION, we all FREELY and HAPPILY say YES to God’s gift of call to Eternal Life by God’s new program (our connection with the spiritual realm restored, furthermore faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL given to us, etc.) in our memory.
.

COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.

.
God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Rhubarb]

Do I get either:

1. Omnicience, or
2. Eternity for trial and error?

If so I think I could create a world much better than the one we have right now. I mean, our current world minus childhood cancer is already much better.

 

[Sophia]

Do I get either:

1. Omnicience, or
2. Eternity for trial and error?

If so I think I could create a world much better than the one we have right now. I mean, our current world minus childhood cancer is already much better.

Of course you have omniscience. Omnipotence without the knowledge how your actions will turn is useless. Indeed, no matter where we look, there is something that could be improved, and we always try to improve them.

 

[abucs]

How true. Just like any competent stage magician can offer you a deck of cards, and urge you to pick a card, any card, and when you exercise your free will to choose the card you want, and it is always, invariably will be the card the magician has written down on a piece of paper, before you made your selection. Amazing… isn’t it?

That is like “predestination”. Giving you the freedom to make the selection that the magician (or God) wants you to make. Of course you are free to make that particular choice… but you are not free to make any other choices.

No, one is a trick and the other is a gift of life. If your view of creating life for others is nothing more than a card trick where you are controlling the outcome and deceitfully tricking others to do your will then you are not the person to grant life to others.

 

[abucs]

I am sorry Latin but nothing you listed says that we do not have to accept God.

He may work in us if we accept Him.

Because your English is not good and you use others citations your writing becomes very disjointed and does not follow a rational sequence. I am sure you are intelligent but your English writing does not express it clearly enough to have a conversation.

I am willing to talk with you but I am just noting the difficulty.

 

[abucs]

Indeed, no matter where we look, there is something that could be improved, and we always try to improve them.

Which is the way God designed our world for us to be able to perceive, understand and choose goodness and then to act on it.

 

[Latin]

I am sorry Latin but nothing you listed says that we do not have to accept God.

He may work in us if we accept Him.

Because your English is not good and you use others citations your writing becomes very disjointed and does not follow a rational sequence. I am sure you are intelligent but your English writing does not express it clearly enough to have a conversation.

I am willing to talk with you but I am just noting the difficulty.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

When we debate about Soteriology, first we must know some important Theological facts related to Soteriology.
.

FOR EXAMPLE:
COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which PRECEDE justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.
THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
.
.
COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8 and THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita CONFIRMS:

AFTER OUR RECREATION, and JUSTIFICATION we all FREELY and HAPPILY say YES to God’s gift of call to Eternal Life by God’s new program in our memory, which includes, our connection with the spiritual realm restored, furthermore faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us, etc.
.
.
Abucs this is NOT the matter that we have to accept God, it is the matter that with our GREATEST JOY we put our life and salvation into God’s hands by the graces of God as follows:
.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

Abucs you said:
He may work in us if we accept Him.
.
As you see above Abucs, this is not the matter of IF we accept Him, but it is the matter of WHEN God calls us to Eternal Life, and WHEN God calls us to Eternal Life He provides us ALL THE GRACES we need to for end up in heaven and with our GREATEST JOY we put our life and salvation into God’s capable hands.
.
.
It seems to me: You believe, first we need to accept God and then God saves us.

Which is: Our acceptance of God PRECEDES our salvation.
.
According to Catholic Soteriology: Our salvation PRECEDES our acceptance of God.
.
If still need to clear up something please let me know.
.
One question:
If you would have the power, would you save everyone?
.

God bless you Abucs and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Sophia]

One question:

If you would have the power, would you save everyone?

Even though you directed this question to someone else, I will take the liberty to answer - for myself. The answer is: “yes!”. If I would have the power, I would leave all the good people alone. while I would change all the bad ones to become good. Whether that would save them or not, is beyond my pay grade. Some apologists assert that “works do not count”, but I don’t agree with that.