What must I do to be saved?

[Leadee]

Leadee,

Give us your best shot and tell us why you believe or do not believe in the five points listed above.

Please remember, you have the only the Scriptures to fall back on.

The truth is, I’m not here to argue for protestantism but to learn more about catholisism and what I am learning concerns me. It’s not about which denomination is the one true church but about who are the remnant of true believers. The word church is just a word for gathering of believers and I can see that the catholic church has elevated it to a whole new definition. What concerns me is that the theology is built on tradition rather then the Rock of Truth.
I hear alot about “interpretation” thrown around but the heart of the matter is having the right foundation to build on. If you have the wrong foundation, it’s just sinking sand because there is only one right one. Either the foundation is grace through faith in Christ alone or it is not. If you use this truth to measure other truth it must line up wtih it. If it doesn’t it’s being misinterpreted. Men way over complicate things. You don’t have to be a Pope or a scholar to find truth because once you get the foundation right and have been saved, you have the best teacher in exsistence, the Holy Spirit. He’s available to all who receive Christ.

This is the best example of interpreting scripture I can come up wtih:

You have a nice solid slab of concrete (the one true foundation) and you have two choices for materials to build on it with. One box has beautiful marbles and the other bricks. You take a marble and put it on the slab and it doesn’t fit, it rolls off. You put the brick on it and it fits perfectly. One material was designed for the concrete the other not. There’s a third choice as well. You can decide that you like the marble better anyway so you take the marble and chisel it until you can make it fit somehow because you like the marbel better but over time as you build you don’t end up with a house but a statue instead.

That’s how you interpret scripture, you use what fits on the foundation and build upward in the truth. When something doesn’t fit right, you know you are not seeing it correctly. Of course you can only be successful if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you. As you build your house it begins to take form and become useful for daily living. We each have to build our own house and shouldln’t rely on someone else to do it so it doesn’t matter what place you call church. A church is a body made up of imperfect people. A body is not one organ, it is built with many organs so that it can function. We’re to love God first, then love one another as ourselves and work in unity to bring the good news to the lost and perishing. We should always be examining what we hear and read and not just taking someone elses word for it, no matter who it is.

The reason I am involved here is because I am seeing how much the gospel of Christ is being short changed. I’m not here to defend or argue about denomination. That is a distraction of the devil for sure to bring division. Paul’s greatest concern for the church was that we would lose sight of the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. Thankfully, it will always stand no matter who tries to destroy it because man can’t ever change truth.

 

[Leadee]

“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us - eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.” - 1 John 2:24-26

If he is living a good Christian life, loving God and his neighbors as he should, the Christian can have confidence that God will justifiy him. He cannot, however, have absolute assurance that he will be saved precisely because he may fall into sin, depart from the faith, and remain unrepentant until death.

Now, lets get back to answering the questions I posed to you earlier shall we?

So in your opinion, what is the good news or the gospel? If you can’t be sure that your sins are forgiven and still live in fear of punishment for eternity, what’s so great about that? Where is the freedom in that? If you are saved by the gift of grace but that gift is not sufficient, how can it be called grace?

 

[fpesce]

Why are you so sure that you are right and the Catholic church is wrong? And you have no idea how much I read the bible every day.

Paul wasn’t writing to the Church in Rome so that they would believe in Christ. On the Contrary. They were already believers. Here’s what Paul wrote of his purpose in Romans 1: 8 First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world.
9 God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in proclaiming the gospel of his Son, that I remember you constantly,
10 always asking in my prayers that somehow by God’s will I may at last find my way clear to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may share with you some spiritual gift so that you may be strengthened,
12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, yours and mine.
On the contrary. I am only clarifying for you what Paul wrote because you are deceived by others into thinking that Paul says that only Faith is required to go to heaven. He never says this and I challenge you to prove that he does. Faith alone is required to enter the state of grace, but as Paul says in 1Corinthians 13, If you have faith enough to move mountains but do not have love you are nothing.

Why do you feel I rebuked your post? I simply told you the truth.without malice of any kind. Why do you feel so threatened? (this is rhetorical, not to have you answer).

Look, I’m sorry brother but here it is for you, this is straight from:

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/intro.htm

This is the Catholic Church’s stand on this subject or atleast the USCCB’s stand.

Paul’s Letter to the Romans is a powerful exposition of the doctrine of the supremacy of Christ and of faith in Christ as the source of salvation. It is an implicit plea to the Christians at Rome, and to all Christians, to hold fast to that faith. They are to** resist **any pressure put on them to **accept a doctrine of salvation through works of the law **(see the note on Romans 10:4). At the same time they are not to exaggerate Christian freedom as an abdication of responsibility for others (Romans 12:1-2) or as a repudiation of God’s law and will (see the notes on Romans 3:9-26; 3:31; 7:7-12, 13-25).

These are not my words please read it for yourself from the official USCCB site. Then tell me if your position is right or wrong.

 

[Philthy]

To many Protestants, being “saved” means being given a ticket to heaven; some believe this ticket is not subject to cancellation – ever!. All aboard!

Jim Dandy
Former Protestant

Hence the reason for needing to discuss the true issue. If they are saying that going to Heaven and being “saved” always mean the same thing, then we will need some specific Scripture from them to argue the point. As it stands, most of the NT letters are written to address specific issues which the author believes represents a “problem” within the church written to and those problems, if unrepented of, will result in a “fall from grace” and jeopordize any “inheritance in the Kingdom of God”.(1Cor 6:9, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:19, etc etc).

If one isnt prepared to admit that such warnings exist in Scripture or that they don’t actually refer to our salvation, then there is little use in “discussing”: they have ears that do not hear and eyes that do not see, and we cannot change that.

 

[Leadee]

Justification is a process with beginning, middle, and end. The end of justification takes place at the final judgment. It is here that the entire life of faith and obedience is judged by God. The Scripture often speaks of God judging our works at the end time judgment to determine our eternal destiny. If the individual is in serious, unrepentant sin when he meets the judgment he will be eternally condemned. If the individual has “pleased” God by his faith and works, he will receive the eternal inheritance.

It’s just that simple and biblical too!

What scripture says that we are justified in the end? I know that we are in a process of being sanctified. I know that we will all be judged but those who are justified by faith in the work of Christ will only be judged on works, not sin. The bible makes it very clear that our works do not help us in our salvation (gal 2:16, eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23, rom 5:1) so how does what you say line up with these passages?

 

[ddarko]

The truth is, I’m not here to argue for protestantism but to learn more about catholisism and what I am learning concerns me. It’s not about which denomination is the one true church but about who are the remnant of true believers. The word church is just a word for gathering of believers and I can see that the catholic church has elevated it to a whole new definition. What concerns me is that the theology is built on tradition rather then the Rock of Truth.
I hear alot about “interpretation” thrown around but the heart of the matter is having the right foundation to build on. If you have the wrong foundation, it’s just sinking sand because there is only one right one.** Either the foundation is grace through faith in Christ alone or it is not.** If you use this truth to measure other truth it must line up wtih it. If it doesn’t it’s being misinterpreted. Men way over complicate things. You don’t have to be a Pope or a scholar to find truth because once you get the foundation right and have been saved, you have the best teacher in exsistence, the Holy Spirit. He’s available to all who receive Christ.

Ok. HOW ON EARTH do you know that the foundation is “grace through faith in Christ alone or it is not”?

You honestly don’t make logical sense. How did you go from the Resurrection of Christ to the above? What rules of logical inference did you use? What are the ground to go there?

So NO, you write a lot about having logical consistency BUT, you have abandoned all reason to form your foundation.

IF you followed proper methodology to form your foundation, you would know that the Protestant position is irrational. But instead of doing this, you come here and COMPARE Protestant positions with Catholic positions and say how far the Catholic Church has strayed. Do you see how irrational that is?

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Look, I’m sorry brother but here it is for you, this is straight from:

usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/intro.htm

This is the Catholic Church’s stand on this subject or atleast the USCCB’s stand.

Paul’s Letter to the Romans is a powerful exposition of the doctrine of the supremacy of Christ and of faith in Christ as the source of salvation. It is an implicit plea to the Christians at Rome, and to all Christians, to hold fast to that faith. They are to** resist **any pressure put on them to **accept a doctrine of salvation through works of the law **(see the note on Romans 10:4). At the same time they are not to exaggerate Christian freedom as an abdication of responsibility for others (Romans 12:1-2) or as a repudiation of God’s law and will (see the notes on Romans 3:9-26; 3:31; 7:7-12, 13-25).

These are not my words please read it for yourself from the official USCCB site. Then tell me if your position is right or wrong.

fpesce,

I don’t know why this passage is proving so difficult. St. Paul is condemning WORKS OF THE LAW.

But he can’t condemn GOOD WORKS and he never does.

So while GOOD WORKS are IMPORTANT for salvation, works of the LAW like Circumcision ARE NOT. The USCCB is spot on.

Salvation is through FAITH and GOOD WORKS done by God’s GRACE ALONE. Nothing the Bishops say contradict this.

God Bless

 

[Tomster]

Ok. HOW ON EARTH do you know that the foundation is “grace through faith in Christ alone or it is not”?

You honestly don’t make logical sense. How did you go from the Resurrection of Christ to the above? What rules of logical inference did you use? What are the ground to go there?

So NO, you write a lot about having logical consistency BUT, you have abandoned all reason to form your foundation.

IF you followed proper methodology to form your foundation, you would know that the Protestant position is irrational. But instead of doing this, you come here and COMPARE Protestant positions with Catholic positions and say how far the Catholic Church has strayed. Do you see how irrational that is?

God Bless

Thank you very much.

 

[Tomster]

Leadee,

Are you aware that Protestantism is a generic name for those forms of Christianity derived from the teachings (oral tradition) of those who revolted from the Catholic Church in the sixteenth century and for the principles characteristic of them?

These were chiefly:
(1) the sufficiency and supremacy of the Bible as the sole rule of faith. (a big error)

(2) the dependence of salvation solely on the merits of Christ or justification by faith alone. (another big error)

(3) predestination to Heaven or Hell. (another error)

(4) the universal priesthood of all believers as an opposition to the divine appointment of an ordained priesthood. (another error)

(5) a right to private interpretation of doctrine in general and the Bible in particular. (a major whopper)

These are just for starters.

You say the Protestant churches have minor differences. Really?

Just consider point #5 alone and, if you are really honest, you can see why Protestantism has fragmented into countless denominations all claiming to be the true Church of Christ.

Leadee,

How about it?

 

[ddarko]

Whether protestant or catholic, it all boils down to one thing, Are you putting your faith in the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter which family you live with or what building you worship in because each person is held accountable to seek the Truth. You can’t just count on someone else to lead you blindly into truth. There are wolves even among us, in the “church”.

You already did.

You have a book called the Bible which was written by SOME OTHER people called Apostles and their inferences on Christ’s teachings.

So what are you talking about Leadee? You don’t make any sense.

I firmly believe that the remnant of true believers exist just as the bible says and I believe some are in the catholic church and some in the protestant chuch (sad that we have to catagorize the “body of believers” into two schools). Ultimately, God knows our hearts and will judge each one of them justly.

Leadee this is hillarious.

The claim is from the Bible WRITTEN by “SOME OTHER PEOPLE”. You are not afraid to question them?

If you give full assent to them, then what is stopping you from giving full assent to the Apostles they instituted that are their to this day?

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

But

Once you make the decision to give your life for Jesus. That is to believe in Him and His sacrifice for us. We are “born again” in spirit and have been joined to Jesus. At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

First, this contradicts what the Apostles are teaching today and what Tradition has held. So this is definitely WRONG.

But you should see this yourself too.

If I am saved the moment I accept Christ, then my free-will is impaired. I can no longer say NO to him if I change my mind.

The point of LOVE is that it must be FREE. If I can’t choose to not LOVE Christ after I once decided to LOVE him, then it is not LOVE anymore. I am merely being coerced in to ending up in heaven just because I “LOVED” him once.

That is not LOVE.

Then we learn the will of the Father and change our lives for His purpose to save all mankind and give glory to God.

Since doing this is a progression, it bears the fact we will fall into sin because of our old habits. As long as we are faithful to acknowledge our sin and repent we grow in the Fathers will and we become more and more mature christians.

But you GROW in FAITH when you do GOOD WORKS.

I mean sitting their mentally convincing yourself is not GROWING in FAITH right? You have to DO.

For an example, I can’t say I LOVE GOD if I truly don’t DO his will. I can say I mentally like GOD, want to be with him etc but that counts for nothing if I honestly don’t do GOOD WORKS.

You are forgetting that mere mental conviction is useless.

Our Faith grows, our love grows and our works grow. We become spiritaully minded.

Actually there is no verse in Scripture that states that if you have FAITH, Works will follow. As James’s states, Faith without Works is dead. But if Works follow just from Faith, then he doesn’t make sense.

God Bless

 

[CaptCrunch73]

What scripture says that we are justified in the end? I know that we are in a process of being sanctified. I know that we will all be judged but those who are justified by faith in the work of Christ will only be judged on works, not sin. The bible makes it very clear that our works do not help us in our salvation (gal 2:16, eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23, rom 5:1) so how does what you say line up with these passages?

Those passages represet an incomplete description of what needs to be done for salvation.

Once again, from this very same website Assurance of Salvation. The text below is from that link.

What To Say

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

 

[Tomster]

The truth is, I’m not here to argue for protestantism but to learn more about catholisism and what I am learning concerns me. It’s not about which denomination is the one true church but about who are the remnant of true believers. The word church is just a word for gathering of believers and I can see that the catholic church has elevated it to a whole new definition. What concerns me is that the theology is built on tradition rather then the Rock of Truth.
I hear alot about “interpretation” thrown around but the heart of the matter is having the right foundation to build on. If you have the wrong foundation, it’s just sinking sand because there is only one right one. Either the foundation is grace through faith in Christ alone or it is not. If you use this truth to measure other truth it must line up wtih it. If it doesn’t it’s being misinterpreted. Men way over complicate things. You don’t have to be a Pope or a scholar to find truth because once you get the foundation right and have been saved, you have the best teacher in exsistence, the Holy Spirit. He’s available to all who receive Christ.

This is the best example of interpreting scripture I can come up wtih:

You have a nice solid slab of concrete (the one true foundation) and you have two choices for materials to build on it with. One box has beautiful marbles and the other bricks. You take a marble and put it on the slab and it doesn’t fit, it rolls off. You put the brick on it and it fits perfectly. One material was designed for the concrete the other not. There’s a third choice as well. You can decide that you like the marble better anyway so you take the marble and chisel it until you can make it fit somehow because you like the marbel better but over time as you build you don’t end up with a house but a statue instead.

That’s how you interpret scripture, you use what fits on the foundation and build upward in the truth. When something doesn’t fit right, you know you are not seeing it correctly. Of course you can only be successful if you have the Holy Spirit guiding you. As you build your house it begins to take form and become useful for daily living. We each have to build our own house and shouldln’t rely on someone else to do it so it doesn’t matter what place you call church. A church is a body made up of imperfect people. A body is not one organ, it is built with many organs so that it can function. We’re to love God first, then love one another as ourselves and work in unity to bring the good news to the lost and perishing. We should always be examining what we hear and read and not just taking someone elses word for it, no matter who it is.

The reason I am involved here is because I am seeing how much the gospel of Christ is being short changed. I’m not here to defend or argue about denomination. That is a distraction of the devil for sure to bring division. Paul’s greatest concern for the church was that we would lose sight of the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. Thankfully, it will always stand no matter who tries to destroy it because man can’t ever change truth.

Scripture alone, sola scriptura, as the tragic history of Protestantism has shown, becomes the private play toy of any self-styled exegete who wishes to interpret God’s Word to suit his or her’s own views. The history of Protestantism, laboring under sola scriptura, is an unending kaleidoscope of fragmentation and splintering. It cannot provide any sort of doctrinal certitude for the Christian, because it is built on the shifting sand of mere human opinion what the individual thinks Scripture means.

 

[Tomster]

So in your opinion, what is the good news or the gospel? If you can’t be sure that your sins are forgiven and still live in fear of punishment for eternity, what’s so great about that? Where is the freedom in that? If you are saved by the gift of grace but that gift is not sufficient, how can it be called grace?

Grace is grace. There is no changing grace. It is what it is. What can possibly change is the individual’s response to it. One can accept it, freely, or reject it, freely. By sin we freely reject it. Having once accepted it, later in life we can reject it through deliberate and willful sin. Understand?

Why do you think St. Paul stated that he was working out his salvation in fear and trembling?

 

[Tomster]

Leadee,

(1) What is the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

(2) Give us your complete, and I mean complete, list of essentials.

(3) After giving us this list, tell us how you determined this list of essentials.

(4) Did you determine this list all by yourself?

(5) Or, did someone pass this list on to you?

It’s time to get real.

Leadee,

Some answers please.

 

[Tomster]

So in your opinion, what is the good news or the gospel? If you can’t be sure that your sins are forgiven and still live in fear of punishment for eternity, what’s so great about that? Where is the freedom in that? If you are saved by the gift of grace but that gift is not sufficient, how can it be called grace?

I am absolutely sure that all of my sins have been forgiven the moment I step out of the confessional and complete my assigned penance. How am I so sure of this you may ask?

John 20:21-23.

 

[Philthy]

Are you saying that good works are necessary for salvation when a lack of them constitutes mortal sin?

there are 3 dimensions in the process of salvation that must be understood to adequately answer this. For ease of understanding they are our initial salvation (born again, conversion), our ongoing salvation (the christian walk, following christ) and our final salvation (being judged worthy of heaven after we die) As Paul says, “I have been saved” (initial salvation), we “are being saved” (ongoing salvation) and we “hope to be saved” (final salvation).
For our initial salvation no good works are necessary - only the one work of “believing” as Christ describes in John’s Gospel. This transforms us from being dead in sin to being “born again” and adopted into Gods family.
Unfortunately this is not usually the end of our salvation journey. Most of us will experience many years of living the Christian life and face the challenges of following Christ. It is during this phase of our salvation that we must resist the “lures of the world”, forgive others, love others, avoid serious sin, repent when we fall and persevere to the end in loving God and neighbor. If we fail during this time of trial then we will, as Paul says, make a “shipwreck of our faith”, “fall from grace”, and Christ will be “no benefit” for us. **In this time of trial(ongoing salvation) it can be said that good works are necessary.

So are good works necessary for salvation? The answer is definitive: no, and yes!
**

 

[fhansen]

fpesce,

I don’t know why this passage is proving so difficult. St. Paul is condemning WORKS OF THE LAW.

But he can’t condemn GOOD WORKS and he never does.

So while GOOD WORKS are IMPORTANT for salvation, works of the LAW like Circumcision ARE NOT. The USCCB is spot on.

Salvation is through FAITH and GOOD WORKS done by God’s GRACE ALONE. Nothing the Bishops say contradict this.

God Bless

The law justifies no one according to St Paul and yet we can’t be saved-because we can’t be just-unless we fulfill the Law. Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms in the Sermon on the Mount that He didn’t come to abolish the Law, that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, that we must be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect.

What’s the difference here? The difference is that any righteousness that the Pharisees may have possessed was only a feigned righteousness because it was not the righteousness of God-it was their own, self-righteousness. And, since the fall, this self-righteousness is the problem with man so that any attempt to cloak oneself with a righteousness that isn’t caused by the power and grace of God is common old hypocrisy, even if that Law was given to us by God, Himself, which it was. So the Law was meant to be a teacher, demonstrating that we were sinful, not that we were capable of being sinless and thereby satisfying God. The Law has no power-only God does-so the New Covenant is all about man turning to God and receiving his righteousness/justification from Him, rather than by trying to observe the Law on his own power.

This is why St Paul is so adamant about observance of the Law justifying no one-that would be the Old Covenant. Only God can justify us-make us just. I’ll repeat what I wrote in an earlier post: “man doesn’t need to fulfill the Law in order to have relationship with God, rather man must have relationship with God in order to fulfill the Law”. This is also related to the ultimate relationship with God in heaven, because man can’t see God, i.e. enter heaven, as a sinner. He’s not yet capable at that point-he must* be* who God created him to be in order to for that to even make sense. But this can only be accomplished by God, with our cooperation, as He “writes His Laws on our hearts and in our minds”, fulfilling the New Covenant.

 

[CaptCrunch73]

I was asking for someone to explain the verses…

So I went and read John Capter 6. to see what he meant. I believe Jesus was comparing Himself to the manna God sent down from Heaven.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

From what I’m reading that God (Jesus) will supply all our needs when we come to Him and believe in Him. What I’m seeing is that belief is most important. I pulled out these verses, you could call it cherry picking. It explains TO ME what that one verse was saying. Didn’t Jesus give his flesh when he died on the cross?

What about the other verses? Can you explain those to me?

Hi Dori and Bubba,

Welcome.

All the verses from you quoted are from the KJ Bible (I don’t know to many Catholics that use the KJ Bible but that’s a different issue). Those versus seem to imply that if one ONLY believe in Jesus Christ they will be saved. Now contrast that with Matthew 25:31-46 form the DR Bible.

[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

From what I’m seeing believe is only one piece of attaining eternal salvation but it requires more that just belief.

 

[fpesce]

Salvation begins with faith, but faith alone does not guarantee that you go to Heaven. These discussions often waste considerable time. Being saved is great, but being saved and not ultimately going to Heaven is useless. The discussion - since we are all Christians - should be about going to Heaven, not being “saved” (ie born again), don’t you think?

Show me the bible verse you get that. Oh, exchuse me, not just the verse, the whole context of the page. And I will show you that you are wrong. All you have to do is go back and read my previous posts. From the BIBLE, THE CATECHISM, and the USCCB

I have more than just spouted general statements. I backed them all up with references.