What must I do to be saved?

[Tomster]

Irrefutable? Try reading this link, Peter the Rock.

 

[Tomster]

Tomster;8195130:

Whether you are aware of it or not, you have just made a great case for Sacred Tradition!

Good job!

You certainly haven’t searched the Scriptures very well.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:14 we read: “Hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.”.

In appears that the Apostle was driving home the point that the traditions he was passing on were very important. So important were they that the Holy Spirit included these words in Scripture.

By the way, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that the whole of Scripture is Sacred Tradition in written form?

 

[paul_c]

Very true. With faith you must cast off the “old man” and live in the “new creation” in Christ Jesus. This means you are one in Christ Jesus. Just as Jesus said, He does nothing that He doesn’t see the Father do first.

Jesus and the Father are one. So likewise when we are saved we become a new creation and are joined to Jesus and have become one. Therefore, we die to our old selves and live to do only what we see Jesus do first.

So, doing the will of Jesus, which is the will of God is our highest priority. This (conforming our lives to the perfect will of God) does not happen immediately as soon as we make our commitment to Christ. Like I explained in my earlier post.

So in the sense that doing the will of God is good works and is very important, I agree.

But

Once you make the decision to give your life for Jesus. That is to believe in Him and His sacrifice for us. We are “born again” in spirit and have been joined to Jesus. At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

Then we learn the will of the Father and change our lives for His purpose to save all mankind and give glory to God.

Since doing this is a progression, it bears the fact we will fall into sin because of our old habits. As long as we are faithful to acknowledge our sin and repent we grow in the Fathers will and we become more and more mature christians.

Our Faith grows, our love grows and our works grow. We become spiritaully minded.

So all that you are lacking here from the Catholic point of view is the sacraments to help you grow in grace

When you say this:

Once you make the decision to give your life for Jesus. That is to believe in Him and His sacrifice for us. We are “born again” in spirit and have been joined to Jesus. At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

We would say that it takes more than a mental assent but the physical act of baptism to be born again in spirit. This is the apostolic teaching (Acts 2: 37- 39, 1Peter 3, John 3). And we would agree with you that at this point you are saved (in the state of grace) and will stay that way as long as we don’t reject Jesus and his teachings (committ Mortal sin). We would further state that if you do sin and fall from grace, you can be reconciled sacramentally through confession to a priest.

The sacraments are physical signs of our covenant agreement with God, instituted by Jesus and administered by the Church for the benefit of our souls

 

[Tomster]

And get this straight.

I NEVER said you don’t need works. I said Works are the fruit of Faith.

In other words works prove your faith. It is TRUE faith that the works of God are manifested.

Good works are all works in the observance of the precepts and the counsels, though the term is usually reserved to the latter, and comprises all that falls under the three broad headings of prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Good works are not the cause of justification. We are made just by the sanctifying grace of infused charity; but if we love God efficaciously above all things we necessarily act accordingly, and thus good works are necessary to salvation. But good works must also precede justification in an adult.

The Council of Trent requires for justification, besides faith, acts of fear, hope, initial love and sorrow. In this sense also, therefore, good works are necessary to salvation as prerequisite.

 

[fhansen]

Once you make the decision to give your life for Jesus. That is to believe in Him and His sacrifice for us. We are “born again” in spirit and have been joined to Jesus. At this point We are saved. As long as we do not reject Jesus and His teachings we will remain that way.

Wow, so we can be saved and then not saved? OSMS -Once Saved Maybe Saved? As if Jesus could lose one of those the Father gave Him? As if our wills had something to do with our salvation? Many Protestants would reject this theology out of hand.

 

[Tomster]

“Yes, and still if you truly believe and still sin, we are not lost.”

And on the night of His Resurrection Christ said to His Apostles: “Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain they are retained.” (John 20:22)

Christ gave us this spiritual medicine for the cure and prevention of sin. This medicine consists in restoring to supernatural life those who are in serious sin and in providing all penitents with a remedy against future sin. We are restored to grace. :extrahappy:

paul,

I am reposting this for our esteemed adversary.

 

[Leadee]

I feel sort of bad that I don’t have more time to engage. I do enjoy the sharpening.

Your question #1 -
Let me ask you this, Leadee: does your pastor officiate at weddings of divorced couples?
I don’t know but I would guess that he does. Why do you ask? I know that the catholic will marry someone even if they have been divorced. I was just at such a wedding last Saturday.

#2 - What are these"foundational" beliefs that all Christians must agree on? And how do you know? Sorry I don’t have time to put in all the scriptures right now.

The truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God. That He is God incarnate. That He died for the sins of the world. That we are justified (made righteous before God) by grace through faith in Him and in nothing else. That’s the Rock that the bible lays out. This foundational truth will never change.

 

[Leadee]

Irrefutable? Try reading this link, Peter the Rock.

Of course I know that there are explainations to get around it but to interprete Jesus as saying that Peter is the foundation of the church as opposed to He Himself is flipping things no matter how you twist the scripture to fit the logic.

 

[Tomster]

Wow, so we can be saved and then not saved? OSMS -Once Saved Maybe Saved? As if Jesus could lose one of those the Father gave Him? As if our wills had something to do with our salvation? Many Protestants would reject this theology out of hand.

OSMS! Good one! I’m loving it.

Indeed, many Protestants would definitely reject this theology out of hand.

And, what is quite interesting, there are some who wouldn’t.

So, the question is: “Who within Protestantism can settle this one once and for all?” Who within Protestantism has the authority to do it?

The only logical answer is: NOBODY

 

[Tomster]

I feel sort of bad that I don’t have more time to engage. I do enjoy the sharpening.

Your question #1 -
Let me ask you this, Leadee: does your pastor officiate at weddings of divorced couples?
I don’t know but I would guess that he does. Why do you ask? I know that the catholic will marry someone even if they have been divorced. I was just at such a wedding last Saturday.

#2 - What are these"foundational" beliefs that all Christians must agree on? And how do you know? Sorry I don’t have time to put in all the scriptures right now.

The truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God. That He is God incarnate. That He died for the sins of the world. That we are justified (made righteous before God) by grace through faith in Him and in nothing else. That’s the Rock that the bible lays out. This foundational truth will never change.

What about the 39 Articles?

What about Luther’s Small Catechism?

What about Luther’s Large Catechism?

What about Calvin’s Institutes?

Shall I continue?

Leadee,

Is there an answer forthcoming?

 

[Tomster]

Of course I know that there are explainations to get around it but to interprete Jesus as saying that Peter is the foundation of the church as opposed to He Himself is flipping things no matter how you twist the scripture to fit the logic.

Leadee,

Who passed on the interpretation of Matthew 16 to you?

Or did you come up with that interpretation all by yourself?

 

[PRmerger]

Your question #1 -
Let me ask you this, Leadee: does your pastor officiate at weddings of divorced couples?
I don’t know but I would guess that he does. Why do you ask?

Because, then, your pastor has taken it upon himself to* alter the teachings of Jesus, *something you accused the Catholic Church of doing.

Remember, Jesus taught that divorce and re-marriage is adultery.

I know that the catholic will marry someone even if they have been divorced. I was just at such a wedding last Saturday.

Could you please clarify? You were at a Catholic Church, officiated by a priest, of a marriage in which one of them was previously married and divorced?

#2 - What are these"foundational" beliefs that all Christians must agree on? And how do you know? Sorry I don’t have time to put in all the scriptures right now.

The truth that Christ is the Son of the Living God. That He is God incarnate. That He died for the sins of the world. That we are justified (made righteous before God) by grace through faith in Him and in nothing else. That’s the Rock that the bible lays out. This foundational truth will never change.

Firstly, what are the verses that say these are the foundational truths? It seems like you are simply picking and choosing some beliefs and not others…

What about:
-there is only One God?
-that he created the world?
-that Jesus was born of a virgin?
-that we must repent?
-that Jesus is both true God AND true man?
-THE RESURRECTION???
-belief in the Trinity?
-Jesus is the only way to the Father?
-God is LOVE?

and I could go on and on and on…

Do you really believe, Leadee, that one can be a Christian and disagree that Jesus rose from the dead? Or that God isn’t love? Those weren’t even mentioned in your list of “foundational truths.”

 

[Leadee]

Whether protestant or catholic, it all boils down to one thing, Are you putting your faith in the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter which family you live with or what building you worship in because each person is held accountable to seek the Truth. You can’t just count on someone else to lead you blindly into truth. There are wolves even among us, in the “church”.

I firmly believe that the remnant of true believers exist just as the bible says and I believe some are in the catholic church and some in the protestant chuch (sad that we have to catagorize the “body of believers” into two schools). Ultimately, God knows our hearts and will judge each one of them justly.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course I know that there are explainations to get around it but to interprete Jesus as saying that Peter is the foundation of the church as opposed to He Himself is flipping things no matter how you twist the scripture to fit the logic.

The CC teaches that Peter is the foundation because Jesus is the cornerstone.

[BIBLEDRB]Eph. 2:20[/BIBLEDRB]
and
[BIBLEDRB]1 Pet. 2:4-8
[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Tomster]

Whether protestant or catholic, it all boils down to one thing, Are you putting your faith in the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter which family you live with or what building you worship in because each person is held accountable to seek the Truth. You can’t just count on someone else to lead you blindly into truth. There are wolves even among us, in the “church”.

I firmly believe that the remnant of true believers exist just as the bible says and I believe some are in the catholic church and some in the protestant chuch (sad that we have to catagorize the “body of believers” into two schools). Ultimately, God knows our hearts and will judge each one of them justly.

Where can this remnant be located?

 

[Tomster]

Leadee,

Who passed on the interpretation of Matthew 16 to you?

Or did you come up with that interpretation all by yourself?

Leadee,

An answer please.

 

[Leadee]

The chosen people of God (Jews) of Jesus’ chose to put tradtion before Jesus and look where it got them? Those who clung to it were lost I hate to think that the same thing will happen to those in the church as well and who is to say that it can’t? Tradition is important but not primary, the truth is primary.

 

[Tomster]

Whether protestant or catholic, it all boils down to one thing, Are you putting your faith in the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter which family you live with or what building you worship in because each person is held accountable to seek the Truth. You can’t just count on someone else to lead you blindly into truth. There are wolves even among us, in the “church”.

I firmly believe that the remnant of true believers exist just as the bible says and I believe some are in the catholic church and some in the protestant chuch (sad that we have to catagorize the “body of believers” into two schools). Ultimately, God knows our hearts and will judge each one of them justly.

Leadee,

Are you aware that no one even heard of the Protestant churches in Apostolic times? They just didn’t exist.

 

[Tomster]

Leadee;8195735:

You certainly haven’t searched the Scriptures very well.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:14 we read: “Hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.”.

In appears that the Apostle was driving home the point that the traditions he was passing on were very important. So important were they that the Holy Spirit included these words in Scripture.

By the way, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that the whole of Scripture is Sacred Tradition in written form?

Leadee,

You still have not responded to this one.

 

[Tomster]

Whether protestant or catholic, it all boils down to one thing, Are you putting your faith in the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter which family you live with or what building you worship in because each person is held accountable to seek the Truth. You can’t just count on someone else to lead you blindly into truth. There are wolves even among us, in the “church”.

I firmly believe that the remnant of true believers exist just as the bible says and I believe some are in the catholic church and some in the protestant chuch (sad that we have to catagorize the “body of believers” into two schools). Ultimately, God knows our hearts and will judge each one of them justly.

Leadee,

(1) What is the untainted Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

(2) Give us your complete, and I mean complete, list of essentials.

(3) After giving us this list, tell us how you determined this list of essentials.

(4) Did you determine this list all by yourself?

(5) Or, did someone pass this list on to you?

It’s time to get real.