What must I do to be saved?

[QuickCat]

Nope! Catholics do not practice Judaism, We practice the only gospel the bible is teaching, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

This is psychobable! If saving faith is truly not alone then we are truly not saved by faith alone period! You have introduced an oxymoron. Its like saying “Hey the food is free but make sure you pay at the door.”

Catholics do not teach that we work first and then comes faith. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephes 2:8-9). Grace is the power and influence God has on the heart and soul of a person that transforms them into new creations (2 Cor 5:17) and empowers them to do the good works God has called us to do (Ephes 2:10). Hence, we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:12-14).

Peace, David

In Phil 2:12-14 Paul is addressing people who are already saved. He is telling them to work out that which they already have. He is NOT telling them to work for their salvation - THEY ALREADY HAVE IT!

Now, about the ONLY gospel in the Bible: Let’s see, John the Baptist, our Lord Jesus Christ, in His ministry to Israel, and the 12 all preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM.
Paul preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Three times he speaks of MY GOSPEL. When he met with James, Peter and John they agree to confine their message, the gospel OF circumcision, to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles with the GOSPEL OF THE UNcircumcision. Hmmm. only one gospel - don’t think so!

 

[ddarko]

Nope! Catholics do not practice Judaism, We practice the only gospel the bible is teaching, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

This is psychobable! If saving faith is truly not alone then we are truly not saved by faith alone period! You have introduced an oxymoron. Its like saying “Hey the food is free but make sure you pay at the door.”

Catholics do not teach that we work first and then comes faith. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephes 2:8-9). Grace is the power and influence God has on the heart and soul of a person that transforms them into new creations (2 Cor 5:17) and empowers them to do the good works God has called us to do (Ephes 2:10). Hence, we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:12-14).

Peace, David

In Phil 2:12-14 Paul is addressing people who are already saved. He is telling them to work out that which they already have. He is NOT telling them to work for their salvation - THEY ALREADY HAVE IT!

Now, about the ONLY gospel in the Bible: Let’s see, John the Baptist, our Lord Jesus Christ, in His ministry to Israel, and the 12 all preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM.
Paul preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Three times he speaks of MY GOSPEL. When he met with James, Peter and John they agree to confine their message, the gospel OF circumcision, to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles with the GOSPEL OF THE UNcircumcision. Hmmm. only one gospel - don’t think so!

Hey,

Do you just skip my questions or did you miss my previous post addressed to you?

Btw, please try to use the “quote” feature properly. It’s a bit of headache replying to your posts because the begin and end tags are messed up.

God Bless

 

[paul_c]

The demons believe in Jesus but they don’t accept Him as Lord. I’m really getting frustrated because I’m not saying that we are not to do good works. We ARE to do good works but our salvation is not based on those good works. They are the evidence of the Holy Spirit in us. I didn’t make this up, it’s in the Word of God. You can keep striving to please God in your own efforts and I’ll continue to rest in the work of Christ and serve Him from my heart. Hope we meet in heaven someday

Again, try to think of this as the Catholic Church teaches: It will help you close the gaps.

We enter into the state of grace through baptism. You don’t need to do any works to be baptized - you just need to want to be born again as a member of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Because if you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven, it can be accurately stated that we are saved through faith and not by works. This is what Paul was saying in Romans.

But, having been saved by faith through baptism, we must FOLLOW Jesus by doing the will of God to stay in the state of Grace. And you are right, that to do so is evidence of the Holy Spirit working within us. But if you fail to do God’s will, commiting mortal sin, you will fall from grace and unless you reconcile with God sacramentally, you will be condemned to hell.

So, to sum it up. we ARE saved by faith without the benefit of works when we are baptized. but unless you die shortly after baptism, you will need to do the will of God, which is to love God and neighbor, to stay in the state of Grace and go to heaven. Thisis what Paul describes in Romans 2 when he says that you will be judged based on your works.

Often people will mistakenly assume that being saved in baptism is analogous to being assured of heaven. Let me try an analogy on you. You are careless and fall off a boat into a river and are in danger of drowning. A man pulls you back onto the boat with a life saver, saving your life. He tells you to follow him but instead you do the same thing yout did before and fall back into the water and are in danger of drowning again. Having expended the one and only lifesaver on you the first time, the man uses a stick to pull you to the boat when you call out to him, thus saving you again. You promise to follow him more closely this time but as time passes, you fall back into your old ways and fall back into the river again. You call out to the man again, promising to follow him, and he patiently reaches out with the stick and saves you again. This is repeated over and over again, until finally you do what the man asks of you and the boat reaches shore.

you see, the river is sin… The shore is heaven. The boat is the church. Jesus is the man that pulls you on to the boat. The life saver is baptism, which can be done only once. The stick is the sacrament of reconciliation, which saves you from all subsequent sin if you request it. While you are saved without works, you only get to heaven by following Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Let me try an analogy on you.  You are careless and  fall off a boat into a river  and are in danger of drowning. A man pulls you back onto the boat with a life saver,, saving your life.  He tells you to follow him but instead you do the same thing yout did before and fall back into the water and are in danger of drowning again. Having expended the one and only lifesaver on you the first time, the man uses a stick to pull you to the boat when you call out to him, thus saving you again.  You promise to follow him more closely this time but as time passes, you fall back into your old ways and fall back into the river again. You call out to the man again, promising to follow him, and he patiently reaches out with the stick and saves you again.  This is repeated over and over again, until finally you do what the man asks of you and the boat reaches shore.

you see, the river is sin… The shore is heaven. The boat is the church. Jesus is the man that pulls you on to the boat. The life saver is baptism, which can be done only once. The stick is the sacrament of reconciliation, which saves you from all subsequent sin if you request it. While you are saved without works, you only get to heaven by following Jesus.

LOVE the analogy! This goes to my “saved” file on my harddrive!

 

[paul_c]

Jim: The N.T. is not a Catholic book! It is mostly written to and for Israel. Now you can Judaize the Church, but that won’t wash. You still don’t understand that the 4 gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel and the promise of the fulfillment of the O.T. prophecy for Israel’s earthly kingdom. You take Scriptures written to and for Israel and attempt to make them fit the Body of Christ, but they don’t fit. Peter and the 12 were sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel. Our lord told them that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this kingdom. As we leave the gospels and the last 40 days of the Lord’s ministry we find Him teaching them about this kingdom from the prophets, psalms and the Law of Moses. They ask Him, just before His ascention, “Will you AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?” Peter, in the first 5 chapters of Acts addresses ONLY Israel in his speeches. He presents our Lord as a "Prince and a Savior… to Israel. You must either ignore the fact that Peter and the 12 are apostles to the circumcision or “spiritualize” all those Scriptures to try to make them fit your scheme of things. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. The risen, exalted Lord revealed the Body of Christ to him. Paul speaks of this Body in Eph…3:1-9 and identifies the Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of the Body. Further, Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God and tells believers that they were baptized into the one Body upon believing this gospel of the grace of God.

Quickcat, you are simply mistaken. The New Testament, including the Gospels, was written by and for the Catholic Church. under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

While it is true that salvation came through the Jews in the person of Jesus Christ, it is simply not true that Jesus was presented by Apostles other than Paul as simply the savior of Israel. Have you not read the great commission to the church in Matthew 28: 18-20?
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Note, that in chapter 8 of Acts, where Saul (soon to be St Paul) was persecuting the church, Philip was preaching in Samaria an to the Ethiopian Eunuch. And notice in Acts 10, it is Peter who the Holy Spirit leads to accept the Gentiles . But perhaps this exchange in Acts 11 sows most clearly that the Church was expanding from Jews to Gentiles prior to Paul’s active preaching:

19 Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that arose because of Stephen went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but Jews.
20 There were some Cypriots and Cyrenians among them, however, who came to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks as well, proclaiming the Lord Jesus.
21 The hand of the Lord was with them and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
22 The news about them reached the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas (to go) to Antioch.
23 When he arrived and saw the grace of God, he rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain faithful to the Lord in firmness of heart,
24 for he was a good man, filled with the holy Spirit and faith. And a large number of people was added to the Lord.
25 Then he went to Tarsus to look for Saul,
26 and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.

Note, it wasn’t until Acts 13 that Paul was sent by the church on his first missionary mission:
1 Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Symeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who was a close friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, completing their fasting and prayer, they laid hands on them and sent them off.

And as seen in Acts 14, Paul and Barnabas also started off preaching to the Jews and moved to the Gentiles only after the Jews rejected them:

46 Both Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first, but since you reject it and condemn yourselves as unworthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us, ‘I have made you a light to the Gentiles, that you may be an instrument of salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

It wasn’t until Acts 15, after Peter declared on his authority that Gentile converts didn’t need to follow the Jewish laws that Paul is actually commissioned by the church to preach exclusively to the Gentiles. This is what Paul says in Galatians as well.

You make the mistake of separating Paul from the Church and the rest of the Bible. As Acts clearly shows, Paul was acting as a member of the Church, under the direction and approval of Peter and its leaders in his ministry.

 

[Leadee]

We don’t try to please God by our own efforts. We don’t work our way into heaven. All that we do is enabled by the GRACE OF GOD. It is by his power that we are enabled to do the will of His Father – the good works that He created us to do – and, we pray, persevere to the end.

Jim Dandy

I agree with you 100% on the above. This is what I’ve been saying all along. The only thing we differ on is what God’s grace means. I believe it is all encompassing, full and complete in Christ.

 

[Leadee]

Well in your view, you are definitely going to heaven. There is no need to ‘word out your salvation with fear and trembling’.

God Bless

No, you are wrong about what I believe. I **never **said we are not to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is just the **beginning **of new life, not the end. To think that once you get saved you are finished is ridiculously selfish and misses the whole point of salvation in the first place. We are created to do good works for God’s Kingdom. You have the wrong idea completely.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I agree with you 100% on the above. This is what I’ve been saying all along. The only thing we differ on is what God’s grace means. I believe it is all encompassing, full and complete in Christ.

So if after you are baptized, you sleep with your neighbor’s wife, or lie to your unpleasant relatives about being out of town when they want to visit, or refuse a donation to a homeless shelter because you want to use the money to buy an iPhone, it doesn’t matter, your salvation is all safe and secure in your cosmic safe deposit box?

God’s Grace is God’s Grace, it isn’t “full and complete” it simply is. The place it needs fullness and completion is in you, my friend.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No, you are wrong about what I believe. I **never **said we are not to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is just the **beginning **of new life, not the end. To think that once you get saved you are finished is ridiculously selfish and misses the whole point of salvation in the first place. We are created to do good works for God’s Kingdom. You have the wrong idea completely.

What happens if you don’t?

 

[ddarko]

No, you are wrong about what I believe. I **never **said we are not to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is just the **beginning **of new life, not the end. To think that once you get saved you are finished is ridiculously selfish and misses the whole point of salvation in the first place. We are created to do good works for God’s Kingdom. You have the wrong idea completely.

Well put aside all my “wrong ideas”. I am more concerned about your entire foundation which right now is irrational. So I want to talk about that but you keep dodging the questions.

How about you answer them please?

As for what you said above, it is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.

According to the protestant position, once you are SAVED, what more else do you want? If nothing one can do OR not do leads to the loss of salvation, then there is NO REASON to do GOOD WORKS. I can see that you yourself are starting to see the absurdity of this protestant position.

Its finally refreshing to see that you are at least admitting that something is wrong with once saved always saved by FAITH alone.

I am glad it’s helping but for the final punchline, we need to rip out the foundation you have and analyze it to see if it is rational. Right now you are not willing to do it. I suggest if you honestly want to find Christ, then you just have no choice. So please, answer the questions in my previous posts.

God Bless

 

[davidmlamb]

Nope! Catholics do not practice Judaism, We practice the only gospel the bible is teaching, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

This is psychobable! If saving faith is truly not alone then we are truly not saved by faith alone period! You have introduced an oxymoron. Its like saying “Hey the food is free but make sure you pay at the door.”

Catholics do not teach that we work first and then comes faith. Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith (Ephes 2:8-9). Grace is the power and influence God has on the heart and soul of a person that transforms them into new creations (2 Cor 5:17) and empowers them to do the good works God has called us to do (Ephes 2:10). Hence, we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose (Phil 2:12-14).

Peace, David

In Phil 2:12-14 Paul is addressing people who are already saved. He is telling them to work out that which they already have. He is NOT telling them to work for their salvation - THEY ALREADY HAVE IT!

Now, about the ONLY gospel in the Bible: Let’s see, John the Baptist, our Lord Jesus Christ, in His ministry to Israel, and the 12 all preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM.
Paul preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Three times he speaks of MY GOSPEL. When he met with James, Peter and John they agree to confine their message, the gospel OF circumcision, to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles with the GOSPEL OF THE UNcircumcision. Hmmm. only one gospel - don’t think so!

I think your theology is more psychobable then anything Quickcat. Everything you write is incorherent and vague. And then when you are called on it you say such things as*…“gee David i’m so sorry you don’t know the bible.” * Its disengenuous. What is clear however is that both you and Leadee have different gospels. At least with Leadee I can make heads or tails out of her theology even if some of it is an oxymoron. I have high hopes for her spiritual growth because I think she is really listening to us even though it is met with resistance. We Catholics are perfectly consistent in our theology, well versed in scripture and pretty well educated in Christian history. Our witness is pretty solid and unambiguous. No wonder we’re Super Saved!

Peace,
David

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I agree with you 100% on the above. This is what I’ve been saying all along. The only thing we differ on is what God’s grace means. I believe it is all encompassing, full and complete in Christ.

Leadee,
You have said grace is all emcompassing, full and complete, but you haven’t said what grace means!

I wrote to you concerning grace by email. You wrote back that you didn’t have time to read it. So, I’ll shorten the conversation and cut and paste the information concerning grace (in red):

Here again, you lack the knowledge of what the Church teaches and you believe what Protestants have told you. The Church teaches and has always taught salvation by grace alone. GRACE PRECEDES EVERYTHING, including faith and works. It’s historical fact that Faith Alone was invented by Martin Luther in the 16th century.

James 2:24 - You see how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

It’s evident that James said what he means and means what he said. Because you don’t agree with James (or Paul or John or whomever you are quoting), you reinterpret his words to make them fit your own beliefs. You don’t believe works are necessary for salvation – in spite of the clear teaching of Jesus and the Apostles and the sacred writers of the NT – so you make his words mean something else. Is your interpretation infallible? Of course not. Then, why should I believe it? And, logically, why do you believe it? It’s just an opinion like thousands of other opinions held by Protestants. What makes yours right and theirs wrong? Oh, you’re led by the Spirit and they aren’t? Sure. Every Protestant believes he/she is led by the Spirit to believe whatever they believe!

We will be judged by our works – Mt 25:31-46.
James 1:22-25 - “Be doers of the word and not hearers only.”
James 2:14-26 - “faith without works is dead.” “You see how a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Mt 7:21-23 - we have to do the Father’s will.
Jn 5:29 - those who have done good deeds will have the resurrection of life
Luke 10:25-28 - What must I do to have eternal life? keep the Commandments! Not what must I believe.
Rom 2:13 - Not those who hear the law, but those that observe the law will be justified.
Rom 2:5-11 - God will repay everyone according to his works.
1 Cor 13:2-3 - Faith is nothing without love. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE as all Protestants teach.
1 Jn 3:21-24 - We receive from God whatever we ask because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
2 Cor 5:10 - “For we must all appear before the judgment seat . . . so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”
Gal 5:6 - what counts is faith working through love, not faith alone.
1 Jn 5:2-4 - For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments not that we have faith alone.
Rev 14:13 - “Blessed are the dead and who die in the Lord . . . for their works accompany them.”
Rev 20:12-13 - “The dead were judged according to their deeds.”

There is not even one verse in the entire NT that says we will be judged by our FAITH.

The CC has been teaching now for 2,000 years, yet you think you know what grace is but the Church doesn’t! Do you know what grace really is and how many kinds of grace there are? Grace is the condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race. It is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Grace is the superntural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. There are several kinds of grace: actual grace, efficatious grace, gratiutious grace, habitual grace, justifying grace, sacramental grace, sanating grace, sufficient grace and Sanctifying Grace which makes holy those who possess this gift by giving them a pariticipation in the divine life of God Himself. It’s what we mean when we say that we are in the State of Grace. Sanctifying grace is the grace that we receive in the Sacraments of Baptism, Penance (Confession), the Eucharist, and Anointing of the Sick. WE RECEIVE GOD’S OWN DIVINE LIFE. .

Original Christianity was not founded on someone’s interpretation of the Bible, as are all Protestant religions. It was founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ, God Himself, to his Apostles, through the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. There was no Bible for the first four centuries of Christianity. This ‘Bible-only’ stuff is from the 16th century deformation of true Christianity. And Christianity isn’t belief in the Bible only – the Protestant versions of Christianity are based on the PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE BY EVERY INDIVIDUAL. That’s truth, all right! Your truth, my truth, his truth, our truth, their truth, multiplied by thousands. There are literally thousands of Protestant denominations, every one of them disagreeing with every other denomination about what the Bible means and all of them claiming to have a lock on the truth…

How do you know Scripture is God breathed? How do you know what is Scripture and what isn’t? Where is the God-given list of the books that belong in the Bible? Eager for your answer.

Jim Dandy

 

[Julia_Mae]

Original Christianity was not founded on someone’s interpretation of the Bible, as are all Protestant religions. It was founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ, God Himself, to his Apostles, through the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world. There was no Bible for the first four centuries of Christianity.

This is a really fine post, but I want to expand on this.

While it is true that the Canon wasn’t officially recognized until the middle of the 4th century A.D., the Gospels were all in place by about 150 A.D. which we know from the existence of the Diatessaron. Paul’s letters were completed as were the rest of the NT writings except perhaps for the Apocalypse. But they weren’t all combined, or all agreed on as canon. 1st and 2nd Clement, were often cited by early Bishops and others as part of what should be the officially recognized sacred books of Christians.

But the point remains valid: early Christianity which became what we call the Catholic churches, had no writings, except the Septuagint. So, the theology we find taught, retained, expressed in the writings of the Church Fathers and the Gospels, comes directly from the Apostles who knew Jesus and personally witnessed His Incarnation.

So, Leadee needs to ask himself if it doesn’t make sense to listen to the teachings of the oldest Christian church.

Leadee also seems to write a lot of very Catholic-sounding posts. I’m beginning to think the issue is one of semantics.

 

[Leadee]

Again, try to think of this as the Catholic Church teaches: It will help you close the gaps.

We enter into the state of grace through baptism. You don’t need to do any works to be baptized - you just need to want to be born again as a member of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Because if you die in the state of grace, you will go to heaven, it can be accurately stated that we are saved through faith and not by works. This is what Paul was saying in Romans.

But, having been saved by faith through baptism, we must FOLLOW Jesus by doing the will of God to stay in the state of Grace. And you are right, that to do so is evidence of the Holy Spirit working within us. But if you fail to do God’s will, commiting mortal sin, you will fall from grace and unless you reconcile with God sacramentally, you will be condemned to hell.

So, to sum it up. we ARE saved by faith without the benefit of works when we are baptized. but unless you die shortly after baptism, you will need to do the will of God, which is to love God and neighbor, to stay in the state of Grace and go to heaven. Thisis what Paul describes in Romans 2 when he says that you will be judged based on your works.

Often people will mistakenly assume that being saved in baptism is analogous to being assured of heaven. Let me try an analogy on you. You are careless and fall off a boat into a river and are in danger of drowning. A man pulls you back onto the boat with a life saver, saving your life. He tells you to follow him but instead you do the same thing yout did before and fall back into the water and are in danger of drowning again. Having expended the one and only lifesaver on you the first time, the man uses a stick to pull you to the boat when you call out to him, thus saving you again. You promise to follow him more closely this time but as time passes, you fall back into your old ways and fall back into the river again. You call out to the man again, promising to follow him, and he patiently reaches out with the stick and saves you again. This is repeated over and over again, until finally you do what the man asks of you and the boat reaches shore.

you see, the river is sin… The shore is heaven. The boat is the church. Jesus is the man that pulls you on to the boat. The life saver is baptism, which can be done only once. The stick is the sacrament of reconciliation, which saves you from all subsequent sin if you request it. While you are saved without works, you only get to heaven by following Jesus.

You explained it so well! Thanks!

 

[Leadee]

So if after you are baptized, you sleep with your neighbor’s wife, or lie to your unpleasant relatives about being out of town when they want to visit, or refuse a donation to a homeless shelter because you want to use the money to buy an iPhone, it doesn’t matter, your salvation is all safe and secure in your cosmic safe deposit box?

God’s Grace is God’s Grace, it isn’t “full and complete” it simply is. The place it needs fullness and completion is in you, my friend.

Let’s face it, we all sin and will be struggling with it until we die. This is why God had to take care of the punishment for us or not one person would make it to Heaven in the end. When we are born again it doesn’t mean we are made perfect instantly, only our spirit is. Our spirit is what connects us to God because He is spirit. If our spirit is dead we cannot be in relationship with God. It’s the beginning of a new life with Him, the beginning of restored relationship. I think we agree on that.

If all of our sin is not taken care of, then that would mean our spirit dies every time we sin, no matter what form of sin and we need a sacrifice to cover it. Jesus died and rose once and made the final sacrifice otherwise He has to be killed over and over each time someone sins and we know this is not the case.

God’s grace is manifest through His Son Jesus, who is complete. What many have a hard time grasping is the magnitude of God’s love. If a person truly grasps it and and truly makes Jesus the Lord of thier life, submitting in obedience to Him so that thier own ego no longer rules, they won’t be able to sin and trample on the gift. They would be consumed by conviction.
It’s like any relationship. If you fall in love with someone because you see how deeply they love you, and then you cheat on them and treat them like they are worthless and just take advantage of them and still claim that you love them, is that love? No, of course not. That person loves themself first and is the center of their own universe. So if someone claims to love God but treats Him this way it’s pretty clear they don’t love Him and are merely using Him and have not made Him thier Lord. They are still Lord of thier own life. That doesn’t wash with God. You are either in or out, there is no in between. At the same time, you may really love someone and mess up in that relationship from time to time. If that person really loves you, wouldn’t they forgive you rather then break up with you every time you fail?

The only person that can cheapen God’s grace is one who doesn’t value it in the first place. If they don’t value it, they don’t know God, if they don’t know God, they have not been made alive in the spirit.

 

[Leadee]

Well put aside all my “wrong ideas”. I am more concerned about your entire foundation which right now is irrational. So I want to talk about that but you keep dodging the questions.

How about you answer them please?

As for what you said above, it is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.

According to the protestant position, once you are SAVED, what more else do you want? If nothing one can do OR not do leads to the loss of salvation, then there is NO REASON to do GOOD WORKS. I can see that you yourself are starting to see the absurdity of this protestant position.

Its finally refreshing to see that you are at least admitting that something is wrong with once saved always saved by FAITH alone.

I am glad it’s helping but for the final punchline, we need to rip out the foundation you have and analyze it to see if it is rational. Right now you are not willing to do it. I suggest if you honestly want to find Christ, then you just have no choice. So please, answer the questions in my previous posts.

God Bless

I’m sorry but you are all off in understanding what I’m saying. It’s probably easier to just privately communicate because I’m finding it hard to follow all these seperate threads. If you would like to discuse it deeper with me you can send me a private message and ask the question again. Thanks.

 

[Philthy]

Jim Dandy:

…the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible… the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics…The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.

Jim: The N.T. is not a Catholic book! It is mostly written to and for Israel.

This remarkably weak response is a strong indication of the weakness of the foundation of your arguments. Not only are you incapable of denying who wrote the NT, incapable of denying who preserved it, and incapable of denying who revealed it to the world - the Catholic Church - based on nothing but your personal, unsubstantiated claim to the contrary, but your claim that " is mostly written to and for Israel." fails the test of reason. You confuse the fact that since Jesus’ historical ministry (recorded in the Gospels) was largely confined to Jews with the claim that the NT, therefore, is written “to” and “for” Israel. Even if the gospels record that Jesus preached mostly among the Jews, does that mean the Gospel accounts were, therefore, written “to” the Jews? No it does not. The fact that most of the NT letters are written to Christian Churches clearly calls into questions such a claim. The fact that there were Jews and Christians in these Churches also The same logical error is exposed in your claim that the NT is written “for” Israel. While it is true that Israel is included in those who the NT is written to and for, there is no exclusivity in it’s purpose: it is meant to lead “all” to a knowledge of and faith in Christ - not simply in Israel.
Furthermore, as I and others have already pointed out, Israel (ie Jews) in the NC is not limited to the fleshly, cultural understanding that you persist in holding. A Jew is one inwardly, by faith, according to the promise made to Abraham (articulated in Eph 3, and Romans) as applying to all nations.

Now you can Judaize the Church, but that won’t wash. You still don’t understand that the 4 gospels record our Lord’s earthly ministry to Israel and the promise of the fulfillment of the O.T. prophecy for Israel’s earthly kingdom. You take Scriptures written to and for Israel and attempt to make them fit the Body of Christ, but they don’t fit.

I see them fitting. All of Christianity for almost 2 millenia saw them fitting. Virtually all of Christianity today sees them fitting. You and a small subset of Christians don’t see them fitting. I do not find that compelling for your case. It seems to me that the problem is what you see, and not how well they fit.

Peter and the 12 were sent to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel.

Irrelevant

Our lord told them that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in this kingdom.

Irrelevant

As we leave the gospels and the last 40 days of the Lord’s ministry we find Him teaching them about this kingdom from the prophets, psalms and the Law of Moses. They ask Him, just before His ascention, “Will you AT THIS TIME RESTORE AGAIN THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL?”

Yup, and he tells them to “make disciples of ALL NATIONS” - the manner in which the Kingdom will be restored is different than what they (and you, apparently) were thinking: it is not an earthly Kingdom (“my Kingdom is not of this earth”); it is “new wine” and it will be in “new wine skins” and it is not of this earth.

Peter, in the first 5 chapters of Acts addresses ONLY Israel in his speeches.

Irrelevant.

He presents our Lord as a "Prince and a Savior… to Israel.

He is “Prince and Savior…to Israel”, but he is not Prince and Savior to Israel only, in the sense that you understand Israel. Unless, of course, you wish to redefine your definition of “Israel” and what it means to be a “Jew” as I have repeatedly tried to help you with. Paul articulates well who the House of Israel is in Romans 9, and it is all heirs of the promise given to Abraham, our “father by faith”.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

This is a really fine post, but I want to expand on this.

While it is true that the Canon wasn’t officially recognized until the middle of the 4th century A.D., the Gospels were all in place by about 150 A.D. which we know from the existence of the Diatessaron. Paul’s letters were completed as were the rest of the NT writings except perhaps for the Apocalypse. But they weren’t all combined, or all agreed on as canon. 1st and 2nd Clement, were often cited by early Bishops and others as part of what should be the officially recognized sacred books of Christians.

But the point remains valid: early Christianity which became what we call the Catholic churches, had no writings, except the Septuagint. So, the theology we find taught, retained, expressed in the writings of the Church Fathers and the Gospels, comes directly from the Apostles who knew Jesus and personally witnessed His Incarnation.

So, Leadee needs to ask himself if it doesn’t make sense to listen to the teachings of the oldest Christian church.

Leadee also seems to write a lot of very Catholic-sounding posts. I’m beginning to think the issue is one of semantics.

Just to clarify the excellent points made by Julia Mae, all the writings in what became the New Testament at the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth were probably completed by the end of the first century. However, there was no agreement as to which were Scripture and which were not until the canon was declared. Eusebius, in his monumnetal book, The History of the Church, completed just prior to the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, reported that 1 Clement was “recognized” but Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were “disputed.” So the canon was in flux right up to the time of canonization in 382, confirmed in 393, 397, 419 and beyond. The writings of Saint Paul and the four Gospels were recognized early. Most of the NT was not written by Apostles or eyewitnesses, but by their disciples. I’m sure Julia Mae meant that the only Scriptures the early Christians had were those of the Greek Septuagint, which the Church adopted from the very beginning.

I see Leadee has now said to PM questions to her. She started PMing me, but when I replied, that didn’t last long. After a couple of exchanges, she “didn’t have time” to answer. Hopefully, she will answer ddarko and any others who PM her.

She wrote: “FYI- I went to my priest when I contemplated leaving the church. He was a charasmatic priest (unbeknownst to me) and he prayed with me and told me that I needed to go where the Holy Spirit led me.” So that is the source of her “sounding Catholic.” . The Holy Spirit led her right out of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world! It is my prayer that “He will lead her” right back in. I’m sure we all keep her in prayer.

Much obliged, Julia Mae.

Peace to all,

Jim Dandy

 

[Julia_Mae]

. I’m sure Julia Mae meant that the only Scriptures the early Christians had were those of the Greek Septuagint, which the Church adopted from the very beginning.

Thanks, Jim. Yes, I meant Scriptures, I should have been more clear! But I also meant “writings” in that the earliest Christians, the Apostles and their disciples, were teaching Tradition, or what we could maybe call an “oral Gospel history.”

She wrote: “FYI- I went to my priest when I contemplated leaving the church. He was a charasmatic priest (unbeknownst to me) and he prayed with me and told me that I needed to go where the Holy Spirit led me.” So that is the source of her “sounding Catholic.” . The Holy Spirit led her right out of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world! It is my prayer that “He will lead her” right back in. I’m sure we all keep her in prayer.

I wish she’d told us that, it would have saved a lot of misunderstanding. I think it’s possible for the Holy Spirit to lead some Catholics on a kind of Prodigal Son type journey, so when they come back, they have made a free choice, which, if you are born into Catholicism, you may not feel as if you had, considering how early we do Confirmation now. Could be a very good thing.

Leadee, if you are reading, please come Home. You cannot find Christ in the Eucharist outside the Church. We need Him, we need Him so much to make that transformation you were speaking of.

Besides, things are dangerous out there and we need you.

Leadee, Protestants don’t pray for their deceased relatives, they think people go into some sort of Cosmic Coma at death. They abandon their loved ones in Purgatory. We need you, Leadee, we need your prayers and so do they.

Bring a few Protestants back with you.

God Bless you abundantly and the Holy Spirit lead you Home,

jules

 

[Philthy]

Let’s face it, we all sin and will be struggling with it until we die. This is why God had to take care of the punishment for us or not one person would make it to Heaven in the end.

Actually God didnt “have” to do anything, but he did out of love (John 3:16)

If all of our sin is not taken care of, then that would mean our spirit dies every time we sin, no matter what form of sin and we need a sacrifice to cover it.

No, not quite.
With respect to “our spirit dies every time we sin, no matter what form of sin”:
“All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.” 1John 5:17
The fact that there are degrees of sin and proportionate punishment is evident from the OT law where different sins were met with different punishment. There are deadly sins (called mortal sins) and there are non-deadly sins (called venial sins). You are correct only inasmuch as such a distinction does not make sense in your theology, but it is your theology which is wrong, not the concept of various degrees of sin.

Jesus died and rose once and made the final sacrifice otherwise He has to be killed over and over each time someone sins and we know this is not the case.

No, Leadee. Christ’s sacrifice occurred once in history(ie time and space) but it is an eternal offering before God that is applied throughout time, for the forgiveness of sins. :extrahappy:
His one sacrifice is made present and effective every time we are forgiven a sin.
Think about it this way:
When I sin and am convicted of my sin (a grace of God) and I repent and confess my sin to God and ask for forgiveness, what happens Leadee? Scripture tells us…
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins…"
Please note that Scripture tells us IF we confess THEN we are forgiven* it does not say* that we are forgiven already or that we are forgiven even if we don’t confess. Your theology mistakenly assumes that since Christ suffered once, in time, that we are only forgiven once, for all time. The truth is different: The forgiveness of sins is an event that occurs in time and throughout all time. The basis of that forgiveness is the once, for all time completed event of Christ’s crucifixion.

I

t’s like any relationship. If you fall in love with someone because you see how deeply they love you, and then you cheat on them and treat them like they are worthless and just take advantage of them and still claim that you love them, is that love? No, of course not. That person loves themself first and is the center of their own universe. So if someone claims to love God but treats Him this way it’s pretty clear they don’t love Him and are merely using Him and have not made Him thier Lord. They are still Lord of thier own life. That doesn’t wash with God. You are either in or out, there is no in between.

Exactly Leadee, that is why your claim that “If all of our sin is not taken care of, then that would mean our spirit dies every time we sin” doesnt hold up! You started out by saying that “all our sin is taken care of” , and that that is the basis of our “relationship” with God, but now you are saying that our relationship with God is affected by how we “treat Him” and that if someone is “Lord of their life” then “That doesnt wash with God”. Our actions have consequences Leadee: we can choose to reject God by loving ourselves more and God will respect that choice, He doesnt force himself on us.

At the same time, you may really love someone and mess up in that relationship from time to time. If that person really loves you, wouldn’t they forgive you rather then break up with you every time you fail?

No they would not. It depends on the severity of the offense. Arriving home late because you selfishly chose to spend an extra hour with your buddies is different than arriving home late because you were having an adulterous relationship with your wife’s best friend. For something such as the latter offense, the restoration of the relationship, would usually require - at the very least - confession of the wrong, an apology, an expression of the intent never to cause such pain again, the asking of forgiveness and an attempt to repair (to the extent possible) whatever damage has been caused. Your theology is forcing you to make the ridiculous speculation that “they would forgive you rather than break up”. It happens all the time - wise up!

The only person that can cheapen God’s grace is one who doesn’t value it in the first place. If they don’t value it, they don’t know God, if they don’t know God, they have not been made alive in the spirit.

Plenty of people who would have been considered “mature, saved Christians” have been lured by the world and failed to persevere in the faith and ended up making a “shipwreck of their faith”(1Tim 1:9) - some even renounce the Christian faith (apostacy). It is a sad fact, and that is why we are told to “stay awake” and to remain humble. What you post above is a theological speculation that simply has no practical use: either it is simply wrong (I think so) or it’s useless because people can wrongly *believe *that they “value God’s grace”, believe that they “know God” and believe that they are alive in the Spirit only later to find out that they aren’t true believers. Useless or wrong - take your pick.

blessings