What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

MariaG:

And just a note, I read in one of the posts, something you? I believe said about substitionary atonement. We do not believe in a strict substitutionary atonement. Christ died for our sins, but He did not “take on” our sins.

And this is THE fundamental problem with Catholicism:Is. 53:6 “All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.”

Is. 53:11 “As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities”.

2 Cor. 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin, sin (these weren’t His sins), on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.All sins were imputed to Him and upon belief His righteousness is imputed to us.

The outstanding characteristic of His sacrifice was that it was substitutionary. Otherwise it served no purpose except a way for God to vent His anger. His *substitutionary *sacrifice was prefigured in the Mosaic Law’s “Day of Atonement.” You might what to go back and study it (see Lev. 16:15-22).

Maria, can we trust that your child is recovering from illness?

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

I didn’t “add” Apo. I am pointing out that what is expected of us as saved persons should not be separated from what saves us. we are saved by grace, through faith, so that we can engage in the work that God has prepared for us.

I have no problem with this, G. But you go beyond this statement and claim that what is now expected of the saved (by grace through faith) God also considers in determining their salvation in the end. Hence, the salvation “process” of Catholicism.

The new identity we have as saved persons always expresses itself in deeds.

No problem.

Such deeds cannot be separated from the saving grace through which they spring.

In respect to “the saved,” I agree. But in respect to how God saves the sinner, they are. The saved are “created in Christ FOR good works” not BY those works.

• If you were SAVED by grace (through faith), you are not now “kept” by works.
• If you were SAVED apart from law (the principle of), you are not now “kept” by law.

The true believer is SAVED by grace and KEPT by grace. And that divine grace is rooted in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone. God saved (reconciled, justified, sanctified, and will glorify) based on the redemptive work of Christ Jesus on the cross. He keeps those whom HE SAVED (through faith) by the same One who now works at His right hand as the believer’s High Priest - their Intercessor and Advocate before the Father.Heb 7:25 “Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.”

1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world.Ture, works are prepared by God for the saved now created in Christ Jesus, but those prepared works do not participate in saving us. “For by grace you have been saved through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works…”

Christ has redeemed us “that we may” declare, abstain, maintain, etc etc. This is the part of salvation denied by the Reformed traditions, that separate salvation from the work that it produces. This separation is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching.

Not at all. What it denies is that such things participate in “saving” us. This is consistent with Apostolic teaching. They’re the works of the SAVED, not the works of those “being saved” through them: “…not as a result of works.”

This is true, and it Catholic Teaching. However the Apostles also teach us that, when we enter into His grace, we also enter into His obedience.

No they didn’t. Paul taught that we enter into His federal headship, not His obedience. The true believer is not only redeemed (bought, purchased) by His blood but he is now "in Him, the “Last Adam”; “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works.”

15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."John 14:15

" If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.
John 15:10-11

Note the conditional clause, if…then. Obedience is how we remain in His love. Apart from His love, we can do nothing.

But He doesn’t say we’re SAVED by the above.

but a person does go in and out of a state of grace.

Then it is no longer by grace (see Rom. 11:6)

Eternal life can be likened to a river of living water. One can get in, and stay in, or get in, then get out. It is also possible to “pop” in and out, but dangerous.

Then it is not truly “eternal” and God is a liar regarding His witness concerning His Son (see 1 Jn. 5:11-12)

 

[apophasis]

MarcoPolo:

Originally Posted by apophasis: Did Paul preach “the church” or Christ?

MP: The two matters in your sentence are not opposed. It’s like saying “Did Paul preach love or Christ?”

Paul didn’t preach love for salvation - but faith. He did, however, exhort the saved to excel even more in their love for the brethren.

Your analysis of Scripture is belied by Christ’s institution of a Church to bring Him to the world. I can go into those Scriptures at your request. Your denial of the role of Baptism, including your analysis of “did not send me to Baptize” has been well covered on this forum and elsewhere. Let me know if you would like to hear about that.

I gave no “analysis.” My point in referencing 1 Cor. 1:17 was Paul’s emphasis on the cross as his message of salvation to the world.

 

[apophasis]

>>>>>>??? Beyond imposing ideas on the text this is getting illogical. They obeyed without a command? How is this possible? What did they obey if not a command? Was it some intuition of what they thought was the right thing to do?<<<<<

Absolutely, they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they were “pneumatikos,” spiritual men:1 Cor 2:15-16 “But the spiritual (pneumatikos) appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

He changed scripture to suit his doctrine and that does not even bother you.

Well, my Bible does not add the word “alone”, but the text still demands it for interpretation. If I’ve been saved by GRACE through FAITH and “not as result of works,” then one must conclude Paul is teaching faith alone. You really can’t get around it.

We do trust in Jesus work. This is true, but that does not make us passive. Where do you get the notion that trust is passive?

If you trust in another Man to get the work done it’s passive. Christ began and finished the work of salvation on the cross. That’s why He “sat down” at the right hand of God when He bodily ascended into heaven.

Putting your trust in Jesus is active.

Trust in another to do the work is by nature passive.

It is an act of the will.

Granted. But it’s not a work:"…through faith…not as a result of works…"

Think about what you are saying. If this is not an act of the will, do we have such a thing as free will? Does God take away you will in order to save you, or does He use you will in your salvation?<<<<<

The option presented for you to exercise your will is to believe or not believe the message of the cross. To this extent He “uses” your will-ingness (to believe), but not your works.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the GIFT OF GOD, not as a result of works (merit, hence not rewarded), that no one should boast.”

No one disputes this. Can you hear that? No one disagrees with you. No one disputes this. No one disputes this. How many times does it need to be said?

To the contrary, you continue to dispute it.

He died for my sins. I am guilty of His death…We all participate in His murder.

You were not there, you cannot be guilty of His death, you did not “participate in His murder.” His death was sacrificial, substitutionary, and propitiatory in nature, being divinely ordained, hence,Is. 53:10-11 " …the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself {as} a guilt offering, He will see {His} offspring, He will prolong {His} days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

He is the victim sacrificed and offered to the Father. He offers Himself, but through our sins we are His executioners, participating in His sacrifice in that way. That means we particpate also in our redemption by causing His death.

This is absurd theology!!! We are not His executioners; we do not participate in His sacrifice in that way. And it is most absurd to say that we participate in our redemption by causing His death.

There are two actions or parts necessary for a gift to be a gift. There has to be a giver and a receiver. The gift must be given by the giver and accepted by the receiver. It takes two to make it happen.

What makes a gift a “gift” is that it was paid for (in full) by someone else. The receiver does not participate in the payment whatsoever. In respect to salvation, upon true belief God Himself bestows it, giftwise to the believer.

To an unbeliever such grace is repugnant.

 

[apophasis]

savedsinner:

I will agree that faith is required for our initial salvation, but I believe the bible teaches that we must then remain in the faith to enter heaven, and that is shown by the way we live our faith, we must have love, charity, good works, or what ever else you want to describe it.

IOW, you believe in a “gospel” of works. However, “*For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH (i.e., in the Person and work of Christ); and that not of yourselves, the GIFT of God, not as a result of works…”*The saved certainly should demonstrate love, charity and good works, but these do not, nor cannot, save him.

Please note it says “have been saved.” Not"For by grace you are (initially being) saved through (the continuous exercise of) faith (being finally determined by one’s lifetime demonstration of love, charity and good works)."

OK let’s say a “fire and brimstone” bible believing born again pastor, takes matters into his own hands.
He sees “sin” in his small town.
An abortion clinic that has opened up in town.
This man decides that the ends justifies the means, so he blows up the abortion clinic, killing doctors, nurses, mothers and their unborn babies, and several protesters outside the clinic.
A gay bar opens up, and he blows that up to rid his town of that sin, killing many gay’s and non gays who were in the bar at the time.
A porn shop opens up and he blows that up killing the people inside and several people next door going to a store next door.

This man is not sorry for what he has done, he believes that the innocent people will be considered “martyrs” for the cause.

He doesn’t repent of what he has done, and he was killed in the last bombing.

Are you saying that this man is not going to hell?

What I said was no man goes to Hell because of sins. Unbelief is the determining factor:2 Tim 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."The Lord knows those who are His and it is not my place to judge another man’s eternal destination.1 Cor 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.

Are you saying that he is just not going to get the same “rewards” in heaven as, let us say, Mother Teresa, or maybe a “Billy Graham” type of faithful Christian?

Based on the actions of the man you describe it would be impossible to determine if he ever truly believed at all. You see by 1 Cor. 5:11 that not everyone who calls himself a Christian “brother” actually is.

I would, however, give you the same answer if you presented a person like, say, Mother Teresa, who for many years demonstrated good works but (based on the letters) struggled even with belief in the existence of God, much less the salvation He provided through the cross of Christ.

And let’s say the same things are done by a Muslim religious leader for the same reasons, to rid his town of sin, are you saying that the Muslim religious leader will be going to hell because of his non-belief in Christ, and not for all the murders he has committed?

Yes.John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” "You see both men believe their horrific actions, based on their causes, are “righteous.” But Christ said He came for the sinner, not the "righteous."Mark 2:17 "And hearing {this,} Jesus *said to them, “{It is} not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.Keep in mind that the testimony of God is that “there is none righteous, not even one” (Rom. 3:10). So you must understand the intended irony of Christ’s remark.

 

[savedsinner]

What I said was no man goes to Hell because of sins. Unbelief is the determining factor:

So then in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus is talking about unbelief as the determining factor?

"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Remember, right before that passage He is talking about good and bad fruit, and you will know them by their fruit.
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

But what does Jesus say?

“It is the one that does the will of the father that will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

When Jesus says here “I never knew you” which is the same thing he says to the Goats in Matthew chapter 25, he is not saying he didn’t know them because they did not have faith.
Jesus is telling them “I never knew you”, because he is cutting them off because they did not show love, they were wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus is not acknowledging us.

It seems to me that for one to prophesy in his name, to cast out demons in his name and do miracles in his name are definite signs of belief, so that can’t be the determining factor of people not gaining heaven, at least in this passage.

And as for the writings of Paul, well when Paul addresses the issue of faith and works, he is pointing out that we are saved by Christ, not by works of the Old Law. But the New Law of Christ involves works, especially the work of Love.
In Paul’s theology there is no conflict between faith and works.
They are both part of following Christ.
We may read Romans today for an explanation of the primacy of Christ in our lives. We are not faced with the issue of observing the Law of Moses, but we are tempted to put our reliance in other things. Christ alone can save us. In Romans we are told how to put faith in Christ. We are shown the power of hope. We are taught to love as we are loved by Christ.

 

[Renton405]

Once a Mormon apologete asked a very good question.

‘What must one do to be saved?’

The Mormon apologete added that he had heard so many different answers to the question, that he was hoping for a unified response from Christians, for surely there must be one right answer to the question. If not, then how could he be sure which one was right.

Contrary to the illusion that Christians are unified in their message of salvation, it seems Christians cannot agree.

These are some of the answers I got to this question over the years. Just observe how they contradict each other.

1. God is the Father of all and no-one is lost.
2. If you do good works and are baptised.
3. Only through the Church can you be saved.
4. You can still go to heaven without accepting Jesus.
5. God’s grant of salvation includes not only Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will.
6. All who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Church.
7. Heaven is open to all as long as they are good, even for those who ignore Christ and His Church.
8. The Spirit’s presense and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. It will be in sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religious respond to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.

…what must one do to be saved

To be saved one must take Jesus Christ as their Savior, be baptized and avoid sin. Jesus Christ is the only truth. Everything else is false…

 

[apophasis]

To be saved one must take Jesus Christ as their Savior, be baptized and avoid sin. Jesus Christ is the only truth. Everything else is false…

“Take” Jesus as their Savor? So lack of baptism and committing a sin cancels out the “Savior” part of “taking” Jesus.

 

[apophasis]

savedsinner:

So then in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus is talking about unbelief as the determining factor?

There are many religious who call Him “Lord” and do things in His name, but have never truly “believed” in Him (His Person and sacrificial work on their behalf). Obviously those He mentioned in that passage fall into that category because though they knew of Him and His authority, He never knew them. And amazingly He accuses them of practicing lawlessness.

Remember, right before that passage He is talking about good and bad fruit, and you will know them by their fruit.
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

But what does Jesus say?

“It is the one that does the will of the father that will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

And the will of the Father is that you believe in Him whom He has sent: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.”

When Jesus says here “I never knew you” which is the same thing he says to the Goats in Matthew chapter 25, he is not saying he didn’t know them because they did not have faith.
Jesus is telling them “I never knew you”, because he is cutting them off because they did not show love, they were wolves in sheep’s clothing. Jesus is not acknowledging us.

No, He never knew them because they were never His “sheep.” Neither group believed in Him, neither heard His voice or followed Him. The first only used His name. His sheep believe and trust in Him for eternal life.

It seems to me that for one to prophesy in his name, to cast out demons in his name and do miracles in his name are definite signs of belief, so that can’t be the determining factor of people not gaining heaven, at least in this passage.

The first group had works, yet He claims to not know them. The second had no works, and they too, He did not know. What both groups lacked was saving faith in Him. Neither group believed in Him for eternal life. It mirrors our own generation.

And as for the writings of Paul, well when he addresses the issue of faith and works, Paul is pointing out that we are saved by Christ, not by works of the Old Law. But the New Law of Christ involves works, especially the work of Love.
In Paul’s theology there is no conflict between faith and works.
They are both part of following Christ.

In Romans chapter four Paul points to two men as examples of being declared righteous (justified) by God totally apart from works: Abraham (born long before the Law even existed) and King David (born under the Law). Neither were justified by works (Law or otherwise). Paul’s argument could not have been restricted to works of the Mosaic Law since Abraham was never under that Law in the first place. He lived four hundred years prior to the covenant’s existence.Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (i.e., grace), but as what is due (a wage). But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"SS, is it the “godly” or the “ungodly” that God credits Christ’s righteousness through faith? The credited righteousness based on faith alone is divine righteousness - even Christ’s.(Phil. 3:9; cf. Rom. 3:22)

We may read Romans today for an explanation of the primacy of Christ in our lives. We are not faced with the issue of observing the Law of Moses, but we are tempted to put our reliance in other things. Christ alone can save us. In Romans we are told how to put faith in Christ. We are shown the power of hope. We are taught to love as we are loved by Christ.

Actually, in the first eight chapters of Romans Paul lays out the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone. It’s not that he isn’t clear, it’s just that men (religious and secular) simply refuse to accept it. Nothing’s changed since Paul’s generation, has it?

Your argument that Paul is referring to “works of the Law” is moot since Paul emphatically teaches that “his faith is credited as righteousness.” The thrust of his doctrinal teaching in the first eight chapter of Romans. A letter written to your church, in fact.

 

[MariaG]

And this is THE fundamental problem with Catholicism:Is. 53:6 “All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.”

Is. 53:11 “As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities”.

2 Cor. 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin, sin (these weren’t His sins), on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.All sins were imputed to Him and upon belief His righteousness is imputed to us.

The outstanding characteristic of His sacrifice was that it was substitutionary. Otherwise it served no purpose except a way for God to vent His anger. His *substitutionary *sacrifice was prefigured in the Mosaic Law’s “Day of Atonement.” You might what to go back and study it (see Lev. 16:15-22).

I disagree, but we should probably start a new thread on that?

Maria, can we trust that your child is recovering from illness?

Yes, slowly, though. He threw up again this morning, but the fever is finally gone.

Thank you for asking

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[apophasis]

quanophore:

There is no distinction in scripture between Christ and His Church. When Paul is persecuting the Church, Jesus appears to him and says “it is Jesus who you are persecuting”.

G., you’re trying to force a literalness here that just can’t be done. When Stephen was stoned to death Jesus was not Himself being stoned. Scripture describes the true church as, spiritually, the body of Christ, but even there Jesus is the “head” of the body, not the entire body. He’s head of the church, Savior of the body (Eph. 5:23; Col. 1:18). Even spiritually there’s a distinction, a separation.

Yes, it was Christ that died for our sins, and he founded a Church whereby we can live out the fruits of His labor. The two are not meant to be separated, just like the works that befit repentance are not to be separated from the repentance and faith that results in justification by the blood of the Lamb.

They are and must be separated, theologically, in respect to the cause of divine justification."…his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5b).Righteous works may follow, but they are not the basis on which God credits divine righteousness. It’s not to the “godly” He credits righteousness, but the “ungodly” at the time of faith in Christ. Hence, totally apart from and prior to ANY subsequent works.

 

[apophasis]

Yes, slowly, though. He threw up again this morning, but the fever is finally gone.

Thank you for asking

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Well, then I will add him to my prayer list for the next few days.

 

[MariaG]

G., you’re trying to force a literalness here that just can’t be done. When Stephen was stoned to death Jesus was not Himself being stoned. Scripture describes the true church as, spiritually, the body of Christ, but even there Jesus is the “head” of the body, not the entire body. He’s head of the church, Savior of the body (Eph. 5:23; Col. 1:18). Even spiritually there’s a distinction, a separation. They are and must be separated, theologically, in respect to the cause of divine justification."…his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5b).Righteous works may follow, but they are not the basis on which God credits divine righteousness. It’s not to the “godly” He credits righteousness, but the “ungodly” at the time of faith in Christ. Hence, totally apart from and prior to ANY subsequent works.

Sounds like this:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

What say you?

 

[MariaG]

Well, then I will add him to my prayer list for the next few days.

Thank you

 

[savedsinner]

There are many religious who call Him “Lord” and do things in His name, but have never truly “believed” in Him (His Person and sacrificial work on their behalf). Obviously those He mentioned in that passage fall into that category because though they knew of Him and His authority, He never knew them. And amazingly He accuses them of practicing lawlessness.

How do you know that they never truly “believed” in Him.

Where does it say that is the scripture.

I feel that you are inserting your personal beliefs into scripture to explain away the obvious meaning of these passages, since they contradict your believe in “saved by faith alone”.

Answer me this.

You seem to be saying that these people who said “Lord, Lord” only had an intellectual faith of Jesus.

How will God judge our faith to determine if it is a genuine faith, or just an intellectual faith?
On what basis will God say “Your faith is acceptable for you to enter heaven”?

Sure one can say that they know Christ, they know His Person and sacrificial work on their behalf, are you saying that someone who believes this will act differently that someone who only knows “of” Jesus in an intellectual faith?
Let’s say you know Jesus they way you say, but you still don’t visit the sick, the people in prison, feed the hungry, ect…, Will God tell us “I know you, even though you didn’t feed me, visit me tend to me when I was sick, welcome to heaven anyways”?

 

[grandfather]

In Luke 10 we read aout a lawyer who asks Jesus what is necessary for salvation. Jesus answers him by asking Him what does the law say, or how does he read the law. Isn’t His inference a link that connects salvation to obedience? Remember Jesus is talking to a lawyer and He asks Him about the law. The lawyer answers, to love God with your whole heart and soul and mind, etc. I am working from menory which is getting foggy. Jesus tells the lawyer, well said, meaning, you got it right, meaning this is what you have to do to be saved. He does not say ignore the law (commandments). He says the lawyer is right. Then the lawyer seeks to justify himself and asks who is his neighbor. Jesus then gives the parable of the Good Samaritan. So Jesus says a person who does not know the law of Israel, being a non-Jew, keeps it in loving a stranger. Now go back to the original question, what is necessary for salvation. The Samaritan did what was necessary. Did the Samaritan confess faith in Christ? It does not seem so. Did he call Him lord and recite the sinner’s prayer, and get saved? Was he baptized? Did he find salvation?

 

[apophasis]

savedsinner:

How do you know that they never truly “believed” in Him.

Because to the first group He said “I NEVER knew you.” The second were never identified as His “sheep.”

Where does it say that is the scripture.

Doesn’t have to. We enter a salvation relationship with Christ through faith, neither group was saved, hence, neither group believed.

Answer me this.

You seem to be saying that these people who said “Lord, Lord” only had an intellectual faith of Jesus.

No. I said they knew of Him and the authority of His name. So in His name they claimed to do various things. We don’t really know if they actually did those things. Nevertheless, they used His name and recognized His authority. None of this testifies to personal faith in Him.

How will God judge our faith to determine if it is a genuine faith, or just an intellectual faith?

True faith is of the heart, not the head (Rom. 10:9), and God knows the heart of all men.Acts 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

On what basis will God say “Your faith is acceptable for you to enter heaven”?

His attribute of omniscience. But it’s not one’s faith that makes him acceptable to enter heaven. It’s his identity, being now “in Christ.” Having been fully redeemed, reconciled to God, sanctified, forever justified and will be glorified; which amounts to salvation; which is “gifted” upon belief in Christ alone. Heaven is the believer’s inheritance (as a son) - not his reward.Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."The true believer is MADE acceptable in the Beloved. And Jesus will not renege on His promiseJohn 14:2-3 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.”

Let’s say you know Jesus they way you say, but you still don’t visit the sick, the people in prison, feed the hungry, ect…, Will God tell us “I know you, even though you didn’t feed me, visit me tend to me when I was sick, welcome to heaven anyways”?

“For by GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works…” You, however keep trying to drag works into the equation.

 

[apophasis]

Sounds like this:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

What say you?

You posted it, you know the context. You tell me what you think? How does it compare to what many have been posting here?

The official teaching of the RCC is “initial” justification. Leaving it contingent upon subsequent works and subject to loss. Is the author Catholic and referring only to * initial* justification? I know neither the author nor the context. You do. But I have no problem with just that snippet. Do you? If not, then you should be on my side of the debate table.

 

[MariaG]

You posted it, you know the context. You tell me what you think? How does it compare to what many have been posting here?

The official teaching of the RCC is “initial” justification. Leaving it contingent upon subsequent works and subject to loss. Is the author Catholic and referring only to initial justification? I know neither the author nor the context. You do. But I have no problem with just that snippet. Do you? If not, then you should be on my side of the debate table.

I am trying to point out to you that whether initial or otherwise, that snippet shows that any “works” that are done, are only possible from Grace in the first place. Our salvation is not CONTINGENT on subsequent works, but they do show whether or not it is a “true” faith, or a dead one. Faith without works is dead.

I am trying to point out to you, that although we use different language, and that you believe in OSAS, and I do not, that in reality, the result is the same.

I have not gotten the idea from you that you think a person who is truly saved will not have fruit in their life? Do you?

You seem like many of my baptist friends whom when we discuss it, I would say that a person is “backslidden” or fallen from Grace, they would say the person was never saved to begin with. What is the difference for practical purposes? (This is not to say that there cannot be implications that result in false understandings on both sides. Catholics who think they have to “do” things to EARN heaven rather than just responding to the grace given; OSAS who think that they just need a one time event and go out and murder but are still going to heaven without further repentance. But for “practical purposes” for the average person in the pews, I see little difference.)

The Catholic Church, as well as other Christian Churches who vemenently disagree with much of Catholicism , believe that one must “walk the walk” or one is backslidden. That is, one must have fruit. The fruit won’t earn one heaven, but it shows a true faith, and not a dead one. The Catholic Church, never says that the works earn heaven, but one must have works or it shows a dead faith.

And my Baptist friends, I have yet to met one who thinks that one will “do” nothing if a person is truly saved. And that the person who APPEARS to have fruit, but falls away, was never saved to begin with, whereas I believe the person could have been truly saved, but did not persevere until the end and turned their back on God.

A difference I can see is that my baptist friends think that the “fruit” flows naturally from a saved person, whereas I believe that a person chooses each and every time whether or not to use the grace from God made available for each and every piece of “fruit”.

By the way, that snippet was from the Council of Trent, I believe the sixth session, although I seem to have lost my link and can’t find the exact words again, no patience this morning for searches.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MarcoPolo]

Paul didn’t preach love for salvation - but faith. He did, however, exhort the saved to excel even more in their love for the brethren.I gave no “analysis.” My point in referencing 1 Cor. 1:17 was Paul’s emphasis on the cross as his message of salvation to the world.

Very good. But remember, Paul did preach the Church.
And the Church was born through the cross, so no problem with 1 Cor 1:17 here!