What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[rinnie]

God can do anything my dear. He can move mountains. He can heal the terminally ill. He can change hearts. Our minds cannot fathom His great mercy and power.

But we have no evidence that the IC is true. No Scriptures…no Church History…no patristics…no Great Councils.

We cannot invent doctrines and then say that it is true because “God can do anything”.

That is how heresies begin.

Can the Pope and Bishops speak and make a infalible declaration yes or no. Did they?

We either have the promise from God and he kept it that they can speak in his name or we do not.

We cannot believe this promise and then say we want evidence that the IC is true. The word of God in a infalible teaching must be enough.

If they say that this Teaching came from God it came from God. IS that not what infalible teaching means?

 

[Mickey]

I asked you does the word of God teach that we must be Baptised to enter heaven

The Sacred Scriptures tell us that baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[Mickey]

We either have the promise from God and he kept it that they can speak in his name or we do not.

God did not promise us infallibility of the Pope of Rome…but that is another thread.

IS that not what infalible teaching means?

If you want to say that you believe the IC because the Pope of Rome has declared it to be true…that is your decision. That is what your Church demands of you.

 

[KathleenGee]

What I mean by ‘denying her’…I mean the fullness of who she truly is…I mean, she is higher than just being very good.

We already inherently assumed that…if we Catholics stand by her immaculate conception, we already understand she was very good to the point she is excellent…

whew…

 

[Mickey]

What I mean by ‘denying her’…I mean the fullness of who she truly is…

Scripture, Tradition, and Great Councils do not teach IC…so I suppose that the IC might be denying the fulness of who she truly is.

 

[PRmerger]

We seem to have a communication problem. Are you saying that since you believe that St Mary was spared from original sin at conception…that she was not capable of actual sin?

Of course she was capable of sinning. She just chose not to.

Take this analogy: Picture a woman living in a cabin in the woods on a hill. From her elevated position she can see the origin of a river. A town is dumping sewage into the river. Downstream there is a family living near the river. From their position they cannot see that a town is dumping sewage into the river, so they drink from that river.

However, the woman, from her vantage point, can see that the river is polluted–and while she certainly has the free will to drink from the river–has no desire to do so.

That, I think, is a wonderful way to portray the fact that there is no contradiction between having free will and never sinning.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hows the EO interpret Revelations 12 in relation to the BVM?

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems; and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven; and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod; and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.

 

[Mickey]

Of course she was capable of sinning. She just chose not to.

Amen.

 

[Mickey]

Hows the EO interpret Revelations 12 in relation to the BVM?

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems; and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven; and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod; and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.

I will give you some patristic commentary when I find my sources.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mickey so the Apocryphal is used with the Assumption and Dormition with the EO? I’m still thinking about the Feast of St. Anna.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey so the Apocryphal is used with the Assumption and Dormition with the EO? I’m still thinking about the Feast of St. Anna.

Details of the Feast of the Dormition come to us from Holy Tradition. I believe there are various writings from Hieromartyr Dionysius the Areopagite, Meliton, Bishop of Sardis, St Epiphanius of Cyprus and St Juvenal, Patriarch of Jerusalem.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Details of the Feast of the Dormition come to us from Holy Tradition. I believe there are various writings from Hieromartyr Dionysius the Areopagite, Meliton, Bishop of Sardis, St Epiphanius of Cyprus and St Juvenal, Patriarch of Jerusalem.

There all patristic?

 

[GaryTaylor]

If you would die without a Trinitarian baptism…I would pray for God’s mercy.

Yes anyone with Good Sense ought to be on point here. Its usally the first thing out of the mouth anyway “Oh God”

 

[rinnie]

The Sacred Scriptures tell us that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Very good. Now does scripture state that EVERYONE must be baptised or just adults that sin?

WHat is the meaning of Baptism Mickey. Why do we rush our children to be baptised as soon as possible.,

What does our Creed say, Does it not say we believe in ONE BAPTISM for forgiveness of Sin. What sin Mickey. What kind of sin does an infant have.

Actual sin. Don’t think so. What kind of sin could it be Could it be possible that the Roman Catholic Church could be right again and at our Baptism we are released from Original sin. If not why do we feel it necessary to baptise a baby.

You cannot enter heaven if you are in a state of sin, is this not correct, and to be released from Original sin we are Baptised in the name of the Trinity.

Now Mickey you went to Catholic school did they or did you not learn this.

 

[rinnie]

Scripture, Tradition, and Great Councils do not teach IC…so I suppose that the IC might be denying the fulness of who she truly is.

Scripture says that Mary was made Holy by God, that means she was saved from Sin. You cannot be made Holy from God and not be saved from sin. Being Holy and sinless do go hand and hand. But being made holy and not Free from sin do not.

The teaching that Mary was sinless and free from sin comes from not only from Sacred Tradition but Sacred Scripture. Blessed are you among people, and you were made Holy by God.

The Pope and the Bishops in communion with him are not a Great Council now, and do not teach the IC

It is written that the Pope and the Bishops in succession will continue to be able to teach the word of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit. It is an unending succession, and the Holy Spirit continues to teach the successors of the Apostles.

 

[rinnie]

I have continued to read why the Orthodox refuse to acccept the IC.

Here is the best I can come up with. They feel that if God saved the Blessed Mother from O.S at the moment of her conception she could not transmit to her son Humanity?

That does not even make sense. Please forgive me, so then would that not be saying at the same time, that when we are baptised at the moment of our birth, because as Roman Catholic’s we basicly are, that we would not be transmitted humanity either?

Granted we do have the stain of original sin on us and the Blessed Mother does not, but getting back to the Orthodox theory unless I am misunderstanding it completely if it takes away humanity, would not the sin of Adam and Eve who committed it blow their theory right out of the water. Common sense here.

Forgive me for not being able to comprehend what they are thinking. Can someone show me where I am seeing this wrong? I have to be.

From what I am reading the Orthodox have more of a problem understanding Original SIn then the IC.

I am quite confused. Is not Baptism for them the same as for us, talking away original sin?

Do they not see that it was Jesus who died on the cross to redeem us from Original sin is what made it possible for Abraham and the other who were deemed righteous to enter heaven? It was by the death of Jesus who was righteous as Adam was not that took off of us his sin.

We all had original sin from the moment that Eve and Adam were thrown out of the Garden of Eden. The first book of the bible tells us that.

And God saved The Blessed MOther on the merit of what her son was to do. But the only difference is she is saved from the stain of original sin, but while although we do have the stain on us, we are still saved from it at our baptism.

 

[Hesychios]

…

From what I am reading the Orthodox have more of a problem understanding Original SIn then the IC.

Well, yes.
That’s pretty much what we have been saying all along.

I might not explain this very well. I can only give you an idea about what we think and let someone else explain it better. You can perhaps go to any Orthodox website for more info, because I am afraid I will not be able to do a better job here, please forgive me…

I think boths churches would agree that we are not responsible for the original Sin, that’s Adam’s doing.

We suffer the effects: concupiscence, mortality, the passions etc.

Baptism does not take away the effects of this fall (we die, for instance), and we are not personally at fault for that.

Baptism does have the power of the forgiveness of sins (in fact, so does Holy Communion), but the reality is you and I did not personally do the sin of Adam, so there is nothing there to forgive. It is our own sins baptism will forgive (for babies that probably would not be much , for others there would probably be something, perhaps very much).

We live in a fallen world, baptism brings us into the community of the faithful, we put on Christ. It is necessary for salvation to come to God through Christ, through his church. Thus we die with Christ, and rise with Him into a new life.

But the reason we need to be saved is that we are in a fallen world, in a weakened state and vulnerable. We need to be in the community of the faithful, with the sacraments, in order to make it through all of the temptations and traps of life.

We need to partake of the Lord, and become like Him as much as we can. That is Theosis.

 

[PRmerger]

I think boths churches would agree that we are not responsible for the original Sin, that’s Adam’s doing.

We suffer the effects: concupiscence, mortality, the passions etc.

Yes. We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin–CCC

And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act. --ibid.

 

[rinnie]

Well, yes.
That’s pretty much what we have been saying all along.

I might not explain this very well. I can only give you an idea about what we think and let someone else explain it better. You can perhaps go to any Orthodox website for more info, because I am afraid I will not be able to do a better job here, please forgive me…

I think boths churches would agree that we are not responsible for the original Sin, that’s Adam’s doing.

We suffer the effects: concupiscence, mortality, the passions etc.

Baptism does not take away the effects of this fall (we die, for instance), and we are not personally at fault for that.

Baptism does have the power of the forgiveness of sins (in fact, so does Holy Communion), but the reality is you and I did not personally do the sin of Adam, so there is nothing there to forgive. It is our own sins baptism will forgive (for babies that probably would not be much , for others there would probably be something, perhaps very much).

We live in a fallen world, baptism brings us into the community of the faithful, we put on Christ. It is necessary for salvation to come to God through Christ, through his church. Thus we die with Christ, and rise with Him into a new life.

But the reason we need to be saved is that we are in a fallen world, in a weakened state and vulnerable. We need to be in the community of the faithful, with the sacraments, in order to make it through all of the temptations and traps of life.

We need to partake of the Lord, and become like Him as much as we can. That is Theosis.

But here is what I do not understand, the whole Idea of Baptsim is to wash away Original Sin. Baptism does take away this sin.

While I agree that we did not commit O.S we are held to it. It is because of O.S that we die. GOd told Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat the fruit. But he meant a Physical death.

WHen Jesus came and saved us he took away the death of Original Sin, It is in Baptism that was made possible by his death that we are all given back Life. Eternal life in Christ.

That is why we must be Baptised to have eternal life. Because no one can enter heaven with any kind of sin, even Original sin. Sin is sin, Rather it was passed on or committed.

Jesus WASHED it away with our Baptism that is why it is one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, that is why the Protestants get it all mixed up. It is ONE BAPTPISM, once you are Baptised Original Sin is washed away ONCE AND FOR ALL. They are correct there.

WHere they get screwed up, they do not see you can FALL from God’s grace into Actual sin the same way as Adam and Eve fell into O.S. by disobeying GOd.

But by his death and taking away Original sin, and his Wonderful Grace, he made is possible for have our actual sin washed away here on this earth made possible by his Sacraments. The main one is Repentance.

 

[Mickey]

The teaching that Mary was sinless and free from sin comes from not only from Sacred Tradition but Sacred Scripture. Blessed are you among people, and you were made Holy by God.

The teaching that St Mary was spared from os at conception is neither in Scripture nor Tradition.