What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[Mickey]

Well, yes.
That’s pretty much what we have been saying all along.

I think boths churches would agree that we are not responsible for the original Sin, that’s Adam’s doing.

We suffer the effects: concupiscence, mortality, the passions etc.

Baptism does not take away the effects of this fall (we die, for instance), and we are not personally at fault for that.

Baptism does have the power of the forgiveness of sins (in fact, so does Holy Communion), but the reality is you and I did not personally do the sin of Adam, so there is nothing there to forgive. It is our own sins baptism will forgive (for babies that probably would not be much , for others there would probably be something, perhaps very much).

We live in a fallen world, baptism brings us into the community of the faithful, we put on Christ. It is necessary for salvation to come to God through Christ, through his church. Thus we die with Christ, and rise with Him into a new life.

But the reason we need to be saved is that we are in a fallen world, in a weakened state and vulnerable. We need to be in the community of the faithful, with the sacraments, in order to make it through all of the temptations and traps of life.

We need to partake of the Lord, and become like Him as much as we can. That is Theosis.

 

[rinnie]

Getting back to the Blessed Mother that is why we say that she never experienced a Physical Death, which means her body was not left here to turn to dust as ours.

That is another proof that she was raised like Christ body and soul into heaven. Her body never was left to rot here like ours because she never experienced Original Sin. We have to wait for the second comming for Christ to re-unite our BODY and SOUL.

Jesus and the Blessed Mother are the only 2 that are not tainted with Original SIn, that is why she was raised BODY and SOUL.

She was made perfect by Christ at the moment of her conception. Even the earthly Saints were not raised body and soul.

Like the Pope John Paull II they are saying he will become a Saint. But he still is not made Holy from the moment of his conception like the Blessed Mother.SHe is above all Saints.

While she is never Equal to GOd, no one is, she is made perfect BY GOD and his Grace. SHe still needed his Grace as we all do. Yes she COULD have sinned, so could we.

But we can obey Christ the same as she did, We all have his saving Grace to do so. We just don’t use it I guess. Not how we should.

 

[PRmerger]

The teaching that St Mary was spared from os at conception is neither in Scripture nor Tradition.

Then from whence did it come, Mickey?

 

[Mickey]

Then from whence did it come, Mickey?

Whence?

Have you read this thread?

The short answer is: Post-schism Rome.

 

[Mickey]

Getting back to the Blessed Mother that is why we say that she never experienced a Physical Death, which means her body was not left here to turn to dust as ours.

The Roman Catholic church gives you the option to believe that she experienced physical death…or not. The Eastern Catholics believe she reposed…just as the Orthodox.

 

[Mickey]

Jesus and the Blessed Mother are the only 2 that are not tainted with Original SIn

You are half correct.

 

[rinnie]

Heychios, You are correct in one way we do suffer the effects of original sin.

But what you fail to add is we don’t have to.

I am going to be 50 this year, yes :crying: I can’t believe it either.

But my point my Dad told me for MOST of those years to never pray for money, God will never give you money. He said pray for Grace, If you pray for grace you won’t need money

He said that when you pray you pray for more and more grace and once you have that everything you need you know you will have given to you. And if God wants you to have money you will get it.

God knows what we can handle and when we can handle it.

But back to my point if he is right, and trust me I have been trying to prove him wrong for 50 years and have failed, then if we prayed for his Grace and only his grace, which I am learning to do, SIn won’t be such a struggle for us.

Because the bible tells us there is no sin that can overpower God’s grace. Now you have to admit Papa did have a point.

He said that whenever you feel a sin pulling you in, to PRAY. If you PRAY ENOUGH your prayer will be Granted.

He said this was made possible by the Love of God. If he loves us enough to DIE for us, there is nothing he won’t give us. But we have to Pray and ask for the right things. And it is only by his Grace that we know what to ask for.

 

[rinnie]

You are half correct.

Alright Mickey I’ll bite. Who else?

 

[rinnie]

The Roman Catholic church gives you the option to believe that she experienced physical death…or not. The Eastern Catholics believe she reposed…just as the Orthodox.

We are taught that she fell asleep in Christ. So really it does not matter either way. BUt her body was raised into heaven.

I used to say she descended into Heaven instead of saying ascended into heaven. But I got it right now

 

[Mickey]

We are taught that she fell asleep in Christ.

That is what the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics teach…that she fell asleep in the Lord. But the Roman Catholics are free to believe either way. I wonder why?

 

[rinnie]

That is what the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics teach…that she fell asleep in the Lord. But the Roman Catholics are free to believe either way. I wonder why?

To fall asleep means to have everlasting life in heaven. What is the difference. Are you saying she died? Because according to the RCC There is no Death, there is only eternal life. She was saved from Death by God by never being touch by the stain of O.S. Remember?

So are you saying she died, and did not gain eternal life? Or are you denying that her body and soul were raised into heaven?

 

[rinnie]

That is what the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics teach…that she fell asleep in the Lord. But the Roman Catholics are free to believe either way. I wonder why?

Once again Mickey I do not see the difference. When we take our last breath in this world we are faced with Judgement day.

We either have eternal LIfe in Christ in heaven, or eternal death apart from Christ in hell.

 

[Mickey]

Once again Mickey I do not see the difference.

You did not answer the question. Why are Roman Catholic permitted to believe that St Mary did not fall asleep?

 

[Mickey]

Because according to the RCC There is no Death, there is only eternal life.

We know that Christ conquered death…but we still experience bodily death.

 

[rinnie]

We know that Christ conquered death…but we still experience bodily death.

Yes we do, no argument here. But the Blessed Mother was raised BODY and SOUL to heaven. We are only raised SOUL. It is when Christ comes again and raises the Body and SOUL together that the end is here.

But the Blessed Mother has been given that particular Grace and was already raisied in her own body the same as Christ.

 

[Mickey]

Yes we do, no argument here. But the Blessed Mother was raised BODY and SOUL to heaven.

Since you will not answer the question. I will provide a quote that addresses this from one of the saints of the Roman Catholic Church:

“If the Blessed Virgin was free from original sin, she was also exempt from the necessity of dying; therefore, either her death was an injustice or she died for the salvation of the human race. But the former supposition is blasphemous, implying that God is not just; and the latter, too, is a blasphemy against Christ for it implies that His Redemption is insufficient. Both are therefore erroneous and impossible. Therefore Our Blessed Lady was subject to original sin.”
Bonaventure

 

[Hesychios]

Getting back to the Blessed Mother that is why we say that she never experienced a Physical Death …

Well, that’s plain wrong.

Christians have always known that she died.

Imagining that she did not die must be some new thing.

 

[rinnie]

You did not answer the question. Why are Roman Catholic permitted to believe that St Mary did not fall asleep?

Because what difference does it make?

When my Dad took his last breath in this world his soul breathed into the next. Yes his body was left behind because he did have sin. Because he was not perfect and did sin although I pray he was made perfect in Christ at his death, I cannot say for sure. I am not God, But I believe he was made perfect at moment he met God.

SO yes I believe he entered eternal life in Christ. But what is the difference if he was in a deep sleep you quit breathing in a deep sleep also Mickey, or he took his last breath in this world and took his next in eternal life.

We do have the stain of Original sin Mickey, that is because of our sin, its there, because the devil or our sin whatever way you want to see it killed the body, but does not kill the soul.

Do you not understand the scripture oh death where is your sting. Jesus died to this world also, so we could enter the next.

But Jesus showed us the devil cannot get our soul. Jesus DIED on the cross Mickey, But his BODY was also raised. He body was not left behind as was his Mothers.

But ours is left behind, that is why on the last day it will be re-united with our soul.

But what is a body without a soul Mickey? Dead. But it comes alive with a soul. As the scripture tells us we will walk again in our body.

 

[Hesychios]

But here is what I do not understand, the whole Idea of Baptsim is to wash away Original Sin. Baptism does take away this sin.

We only have the effects (your church and mine say so), not the guilt.

Yet you say baptism washes these effects away? Do we not bleed, do we not yearn for pleasure, do we not hunger and thirst, do we not die?

Everyone must pass through death.

But we have hope in the Lord.

 

[rinnie]

Well, that’s plain wrong.

Christians have always known that she died.

Imagining that she did not die must be some new thing.

Again we do not believe in death. Only if you die in mortal sin. We believe that there is no death, that Jesus took away death on the cross.

You either believe that Jesus took away death on the cross or you do not. We believe that our soul is the center of our being not our body. You cannot kill a soul only by sin.

IF you are in the state of Grace you will not enter into death, you will enter into eternal life with CHrist. You can kill the body but not the soul.