What one author says about the Muslim "religion"

[planten]

i think the pope would be too scared to say anything against Muslims…

afraid they’d shoot him…

he’s an infidel you know…

all we Roman Catholics… and all Christians and all non-Mulsims are…

and infidels either convert to Islam or

DIE

**Distracted, we Muslims do not call Pope an infidel. But you call him an infidel. Very bad. We consider Pope as the respected leader of millions of christians. So we respect him.

We do not consider the majority christians as infidels. We consider them as the people of the book. They are free to follow their book (bible). The more they follow their book and come closer to God, the more happy we will be.

You are absolutely wrong about every non-Muslim being infidel. Such theory is being followed by many Muslims. But that is not Islam. Nobody is to die only for a difference of faith alone. Any peaceful person may have no fear from islam. He may be a Jew or a christian or a Hindu or JW etc**.

 

[elwill]

If only! Indeed, it is in there too. These horrible verses about striking the unbelievers and all that. I’d search for them and find them quite easily, but you already know that they’re there anyway.

fisrstly , the horrible verses and violence is exist in your bible as well

secondly , okey i have to confess that i know it , just bring it if you need to know my understanding as muslim for it

I would love to. Please tell me, then, how to justify these verses that say that you should subjugate the people of the book, that you claim to respect?

I know already the explanation that the jizya was historically a substitute for Muslim taxes that were higher, but then why does the Qur’an talk about “humilation” and bringing us low? There is no justification for that.

this also applies to the Muslims who do not pay their Zakat! Abu Bakr fought against the Muslims who didn’t pay Zakat. So how does this discriminate against the Christians and Jews?

In America if someone does not pay their taxes they can go to jail. Does that make America unjust?

Islam wants to subjugate us, and we don’t want it, and you ask us why? How can you ask us why?

i’m not gonna to ask you why , i really have to ask you islamic teaching from islamic sources to back up your point

briefly , islam didn’t ask us to subjugate you , it’s completely asked us the opposite

Doesn’t every human being want to live his life according to his religion that he says gives him freedom? We Christians are no different. But we cannot be really free under Islam.

practically and historically , christians allready lived freely under islam , what about christianity or will you tell me not to talk about the past and history of the church ?

We already have our own way. Islam is not necessary for us, we have al-Masih, and Muslims interpretations of some verses that try to tell us that we should be lower than you because we don’t believe in Muhammad and the Islamic Allah won’t really help.

we have no problems if you want to keep your religion

No context will bring back murdered Copts, Assyrians, Armenians, destroyed and stolen churches (Hagia Sofia), kidnapped and raped daughters, etc. I am not telling you that all Muslims say that these things are okay, but I will say that the ones that do think these are justifiable things have plenty of writings from Islamic books that tell them that they are okay! But they’re not!

and i will not ask you to give me these islamic writing which tell to the crimers that thier crimes are okey ( because i’m sure that there is no such islamic writing which justify raped daugter , may be such thing exist in OT but not in islam )

the most important thing is that most of muslims see such crimes to be not okey , so they dosn’t deserve your insulting for thier religion nor does they deseve your hateness

 

[Agabriel]

i think the pope would be too scared to say anything against Muslims…

afraid they’d shoot him…

he’s an infidel you know…

all we Roman Catholics… and all Christians and all non-Mulsims are…

and infidels either convert to Islam or

DIE

Who knows - it is hard to point out the cowardness in anyone else except ourselves. But, what I think that he is trying to do is try to make the Muslim world start tolerating others (those persecuted Christians, and probably others too) that Muslims can’t seem to think deserve anything other than their scorn. The Muslims want us to tolerate while they do absolutely nothing in that regard to anyone not of Islam.

 

[Agabriel]

**That was bad of that Pope to open his mouth like that. Why did he have to refer to the worst thing in the world about islam?. there were many other good things to quote and refer and refer about Islam. Pope is an important person. He should be careful about everything and should not run down to an illicit remark of the very old times. It hurts a majority contender of the christianity, i.e. islam. **

To bad they proved his point by rioting, destroying churches and killing, huh?

We might be able to say something good about an individual Muslim but as a whole, when they are under Sharia laws, it is really hard to say something nice when persecution of Christians, and other non-Muslims, still goes on. And that is the ones in Europe! It is worse in the Middle East and elsewhere where there are over 30 battles being waged by Muslim aggression against unbelievers.

 

[Agabriel]

One of the most common arguments - the Bible has violence in it too!

Considering that we have to search for it and it can take awhile, it is readily available within lines in the Quran. And it is not a command for the Jews (in the OT) or the Christians (int the OT or NT) to keep on committing acts of violence against others. And it is in the Quran for its adherents to keep on doing ‘good works’ defined as terror, killing, etc of unbelievers.

The only parts that can be considered a tiny bit of spiritual are the twisted stories that Muhammed plagiarized from the Bible. If one can figure out the spirituality in those twisted stores!

It is obvious the Muslims in this thread have not read the book from the first post. How come you keep bringing up the Bible and what the Christians do? This is about what one author says about the Muslim “religion”.

 

[GraceDK]

I read a very intersting book called America Alone…

Here is one thing he wrote (Mark Steyn)… p.62

"… it’s not merely that there’s a global jihad lurking within this religion [Islam], but that the religion itself is a plitical project - and, in fact, an imperial project - in a way that modern Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Budhhism are not. Furthermore, this particular religion is historically a somewhat bloodthirsty faith in which wahtever’s your bag vioence-wise can almost certainly be justified… [Christianity]… the Spanish Inquisition, which remains a byword for theocratic violence, killed fewer people in a century and a half than the jihad does in a typical year. So we have a global terrorist movement insulated within a global political project insulated within a severly self-segregating religion whose adherents are the fastest-growing demographic in the developed world " [They, unlike everyone else in the world, including so called Catholics, do NOT practice birth control].

I agree with the passage quoted until the last two lines,
There are some groups of Muslims that have not and do not practice birthcontrol, but there are also many who do… like for instance the population of Iran… the birthrate is almost at the same level as Europe because people there have been influenced by the west and by the longing for prosperity, which also means having fewer children…A friend of mine who is Muslim has two children and is conidering having a third and last child. She wouldnt dream of having eight children… for her its a practice that belongs to former generations, just like it is for us in the West.
On the other hand we have groups such as Lebanese and Palestinian who- in their own countries marry early and have many children and many of them dont practice abc although they might have other ways…

 

[distracted]

how disrespectful of you to label the pope as a coward…and you have very ignorant view about the 1.5 billion Muslims and think they are all one homogeneous group

not going there…

 

[distracted]

** He should be careful about everything and should not run down to an illicit remark of the very old times. . **

why? are you going to assasinate him??

 

[planten]

Reply to dzhereme about post 94.

If only! Indeed, it is in there too. These horrible verses about striking the unbelievers and all that. I’d search for them and find them quite easily, but you already know that they’re there anyway.

dzhereme, there are no voilent verses in the Quran for the peaceful people. Any one may believe in islam or refuse to believe, there is no harm as long he does not take up arms against islam.

I would love to. Please tell me, then, how to justify these verses that say that you should subjugate the people of the book, that you claim to respect? I know already the explanation that the jizya was historically a substitute for Muslim taxes that were higher, but then why does the Qur’an talk about “humilation” and bringing us low? There is no justification for that. Islam wants to subjugate us, and we don’t want it, and you ask us why? How can you ask us why? Doesn’t every human being want to live his life according to his religion that he says gives him freedom?

** That was during war time. It was an open war against Islam evey where, from the Romans as well as the Persians. It was necessary to know about the friend or foe. To make them low or to subjugate them is a natural result of being on the wrong side of the warring parties. The people of the book did not accept Islam but remained on their own faith and tried not to take part in the war. So Jizyah was imposed as an indication that they were under the protection of the Muslims so that nobody harms them.

That is enough to prove that they were on a lower status. However bad they may feel. It is a great good work of Islam that the people of the book did not need to become Muslims and they were allowed to continue on their own faith and they were not liable to be killed. That disproves the allegation of the Catholics here that Muslims used to press people for conversion or they were to be killed. that is all proved false.**

We Christians are no different. But we cannot be really free under Islam. We already have our own way. Islam is not necessary for us, we have al-Masih, and Muslims interpretations of some verses that try to tell us that we should be lower than you because we don’t believe in Muhammad and the Islamic Allah won’t really help. No context will bring back murdered Copts, Assyrians, Armenians, destroyed and stolen churches (Hagia Sofia), kidnapped and raped daughters, etc. I am not telling you that all Muslims say that these things are okay, but I will say that the ones that do think these are justifiable things have plenty of writings from Islamic books that tell them that they are okay! But they’re not!

**How is it that you cannot be free under Islam. You mean your churches are unafe. Do you mean you cannot pray according to your own faith. What else do you want?? What other freedom?? the proof of the good and free living for the christians is in the history when a big delegation of christians came to Madinah from Najran during the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad. The prophet put up the delegation in his mosque and allowed them to pray as they liked.

Please note all these things which are very basic and from the original beliefs of Islam. That delegation was never killed for being christian. So why are you all out to blame Islam by false accusations**.

 

[distracted]

**
We do not consider the majority christians as infidels. We consider them as the people of the book. They are free to follow their book (bible). The more they follow their book and come closer to God, the more happy we will be.** well, it may or may not be true that ALL Muslims think Chirstians infidels… but i do know (and this is all one really needs to know) that SOME… probably very many DO… and there is no safe % of Muslims we can have in this country who DO think such things… According to your supposedly sacred books, infidels need to convert or be killed… So tell me that all muslims do not believe in this kind of thing??? (unless they are Muslims who were forced to convert/)

You are absolutely wrong about every non-Muslim being infidel. ]

 

[distracted]

I agree with the passage quoted until the last two lines,
There are some groups of Muslims that have not and do not practice birthcontrol, but there are also many who do… like for instance the population of Iran… the birthrate is almost at the same level as Europe because people there have been influenced by the west and by the longing for prosperity, which also means having fewer children…A friend of mine who is Muslim has two children and is conidering having a third and last child. She wouldnt dream of having eight children… for her its a practice that belongs to former generations, just like it is for us in the West.
On the other hand we have groups such as Lebanese and Palestinian who- in their own countries marry early and have many children and many of them dont practice abc although they might have other ways…

the guy said “adherants”… Obviously the poeple you speak of are not adhering to Islam… which is good… except that i don’t believe in artif birth contr…

 

[distracted]

seems to me the fasted growing demographic groups are Muslim and devout, practicing Catholics… and devout Christians who don’t use artif birth contr.

you know what that means:

Some day we are going to have to duke it out with one another…

and we will win becasue we have Jesus on our side…

 

[GraceDK]

the guy said “adherants”… Obviously the poeple you speak of are not adhering to Islam… which is good… except that i don’t believe in artif birth contr…

No I am not so sure about that.
You can back it up with some serious sura or hadith… because I dont think birth control is really even mentioned in Islam.
I would not call the Iranians bad muslims… I think they are like most are… and they still live in a sharia country where you can be sure that contraception would be banned if Islam explicitly banned it.

peace

 

[planten]

why? are you going to assasinate him??

Distracted, nobody is going to kill any one. Pope is an international person. He is well known and respected all over the world. So he should be careful about what he says. His words should be a kind of responsible person. That is all.

 

[Agabriel]

Distracted, nobody is going to kill any one. Pope is an international person. He is well known and respected all over the world. So he should be careful about what he says. His words should be a kind of responsible person. That is all.

distracted and planten, there was indeed a fatwa put out to kill the Pope. There are many articles on this. There is also a tie to bin Laden which probably means that any group that has the pact that was signed in the late 1980s can do this deed - at any time. And there are many groups such as we have seen with the ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam.

This pact was signed with many groups and individuals: Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood which uses the MSA, CAIR, and every Muslim group in the USA, Hamas, Saddam and Arafat (both are now dead), Egyptian Islamic Jihad (which was the outfit that the recruiter of the 17 who bombed us on 9/11), and many other groups. I think the Taliban also signed this pact, but I could be wrong with that group.

I, personally, would not discount it if I were the Pope. Especially since this is considered ‘good works’ in Islam - a sure way for a Muslim to get to heaven.

I also don’t trust anything from planten since he is a lone Muslim (who knows who he really is) but does gives us glimpses into the ‘Muslim mind’.

And the thing with these Muslim groups is that there is not a very big concern in the Muslim world to dismantle, or bring to justice, members of these groups unless they attack fellow Muslims.

There is one thing to keep in mind if you want to shuff this off as paranoia - the Muslim worlds idea that they will conquer Rome:

Muslims believe that they will conquer Rome in the End Times. This fatwa really is just one of the list of things that Muslims will try to make it happen.

Nafi’ b. Utba reported: … I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah’s Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and AllgLh [sic] will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi’ said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered. (Sahih Muslim 41.6930)

 

[planten]

**Yes, Some Mulla whose feelings were hurt by the bad words of the Pope, may have issued a fatwa to kill the Pope. It is possible. But that is after the bad remarks of the Pope about our prophet. Not before that.

That is why i said “Pope should be careful about his words.” Otherwise it will incite people to voilence and disrespect for the Pope and his followers i.e. Catholics.

I remember having read an article on the net about Pope. It was by some Protestant. It was in the most filthy abusive language that I have ever seen. So you catholics should see even if we Mulsims cannot retaliate or reply to your abuse of our prophet, Allah does take revenge from you by some other means.

Then another one. I saw a video clip on the net about a young Jew (who was drunk). He was abusing a Padre ( some evangelist) with the most abusive words that cannot be reproduced here. He was telling that Catholic to buzz off ( with abusive words.) He was even abusing Jesus.

**.

 

[Eleve]

I don’t know about anyone else but i don’t want ANY Muslims in this country… Sorry if that make me “intolerant” . I don’t feel that Americans should be forced to take such chances. If 911 had never happend, i wouldn’t be saying this… but it HAS happend… We have to be realistic…

This is positively ignorant and sickening and ugly and vile. Have you not noticed that millions of the Americans with whom you concern yourself are Muslims? Do they not get to participate in your sanitized imaginary America? Have you not read the First Amendment to the Constitution, the very first provision of which is the freedom to exercise religion? Are you not aware of the hideous history of bigotry in this country against Catholics that you now turn, with the same excuses, against Muslims? Have you been blinded to the acts of terrorism that Christians have committed in the name of their faith in this country?

Before you think of risk, think of the certain destruction of liberty and human dignity that would come from the forcible exclusion of Muslims from America.

 

[planten]

This is positively ignorant and sickening and ugly and vile. Have you not noticed that millions of the Americans with whom you concern yourself are Muslims? Do they not get to participate in your sanitized imaginary America? Have you not read the First Amendment to the Constitution, the very first provision of which is the freedom to exercise religion? Are you not aware of the hideous history of bigotry in this country against Catholics that you now turn, with the same excuses, against Muslims? Have you been blinded to the acts of terrorism that Christians have committed in the name of their faith in this country?

Before you think of risk, think of the certain destruction of liberty and human dignity that would come from the forcible exclusion of Muslims from America.

That is an excellent post by Eleve. Such are the good people. And see what was written by Distracted:

Originally Posted by distracted
I don’t know about anyone else but i don’t want ANY Muslims in this country… Sorry if that make me “intolerant”

Distracted wants the statue of Liberty to be broken and brought down to ground.

 

[GraceDK]

This is positively ignorant and sickening and ugly and vile. Have you not noticed that millions of the Americans with whom you concern yourself are Muslims? Do they not get to participate in your sanitized imaginary America? Have you not read the First Amendment to the Constitution, the very first provision of which is the freedom to exercise religion? Are you not aware of the hideous history of bigotry in this country against Catholics that you now turn, with the same excuses, against Muslims? Have you been blinded to the acts of terrorism that Christians have committed in the name of their faith in this country?

Before you think of risk, think of the certain destruction of liberty and human dignity that would come from the forcible exclusion of Muslims from America.

May I ask you some questions?
How many percent of a population can become anti-democratic before you find there is a problem in it?
Can sharia be seperated from islam?

In my small European country we have quite a lot of Muslims who have immigrted or fled to this country. Often a poll is made from this group of citizens. Last was one about critizising religion, where the Muslims were asked about this, and the majority said that such critique should not be allowed. That means, at least half our Muslim population wants it illegal to critizise religion. Also we have high ranking Muslims in our country who openly declare: “There is no Islam without sharia, so I must advocate cutting off the hands of thieves etc”. One woman Muslim lost her political carreer here because she said that stoning of adulterers is okay. She could not deny that because she is a Muslim.

I find Islam and democracy to be two political systems that cannot be combined… So I understand what Distracted comes from. He is not calling for killing of Muslims, but probably for immigration-restrictions on people who are anti democratic. I think this is fair to say for a soceity that want to remain a democracy.
You havent had one day of unfreedom and probably dont realise what it would be like to live in a country that attempts to be islamic.

 

[Eleve]

I’m fine with restricting immigration for those who want to vote against basic democratic principles. I think you’ll find, however, that most Muslims would not hold these opinions.