What one author says about the Muslim "religion"

[dzheremi]

dzhereme, there are no voilent verses in the Quran for the peaceful people. Any one may believe in islam or refuse to believe, there is no harm as long he does not take up arms against islam

That is the key, my friend. Muslims get to decide who is “peaceful”, and so, who gets to have any rights. If we deny Muhammad’s prophethood or deny that the Qur’an is the truth, then we are no longer considered “peaceful” and your stupid Islamic “justice” systems allow for all kinds of terrible things to happen to us for which we have no recourse. You KNOW this is true. Or do you not know what happens in countries like Pakistan to people charged with “blasphemy” under laws that make it a crime to insult Muhammad or the Qur’an? I’ll tell you what happens: They are put in jail for an indeterminate amount of time, killed by lynch mobs, etc. And the vast majority of cases do not actually involve any sort of blasphemy, but are motivated by personal disputes and distrust of religious minorities!
Akhbar S. Ahmed:

Anwar Masih, a Christian from Samundri in Punjab, has been in detention since February 1993 when a Muslim shopkeeper alleged that Masih insulted the prophet during an argument over money.

Roman Catholic Bishop John Joseph, a Pakistani human rights campaigner, had been leading a campaign against the blasphemy law and said he felt he was getting nowhere when he took his own life on May 6, 1998. He had failed to find a lawyer willing to take the case of convicted blasphemer Ayub Massih, a Christian.Massih’s family had applied to a government program that gives housing plots to landless people. The local landlords, who brought the allegations against him, resented this because landless Christians work in their fields in exchange for a place to live. By getting a plot of land Massih would have escaped his bondage.

“Most of these cases,” concludes Amnesty International in its latest report on Pakistan, “are motivated not by the blasphemous actions of the accused, but by hostility toward members of minority communities, compounded by personal enmity, professional jealousy or economic rivalry.” (link)

That was during war time. It was an open war against Islam evey where, from the Romans as well as the Persians. It was necessary to know about the friend or foe. To make them low or to subjugate them is a natural result of being on the wrong side of the warring parties.

“The wrong side of the warring parties”? Interesting…and again, completely defined by whatever Muslim cares to define it. Am I on the “wrong” side of the war if I stick to my Christian principles? It would seem that I am. Because Muhammad is a false prophet and the Qur’an is not the word of God and Islam is not the true religion, and these things are true in peace-time and in war-time. In many places in the Muslim world, I would risk my life by saying such things.

The people of the book did not accept Islam but remained on their own faith and tried not to take part in the war. So Jizyah was imposed as an indication that they were under the protection of the Muslims so that nobody harms them.

“Protection” from WHO, exactly? From MUSLIMS! Duh.

That is enough to prove that they were on a lower status. However bad they may feel.

That’s disgusting. You make me sick sometimes, Planten. But I know it is not really your fault. You are giving an Islamically prescribed answer here.

It is a great good work of Islam that the people of the book did not need to become Muslims and they were allowed to continue on their own faith and they were not liable to be killed.

Or it WOULD be a great work, if that were true, which it isn’t. What happened, for instance, when the Muslim mobs destroyed parts of the Abu Fana monastery in Egypt only a little while ago? It was ostensibly a “land dispute”, but still some Muslims kidnapped the monks, tortured them, and tried to force them to convert to Islam. That is an odd thing to do in a “land dispute”, don’t you think? And they were the lucky ones, those monks! They were only tortured! Others, like our beloved Chaldean martyrs Fr. Ghanni and Archibishop Rahho of Iraq were given the same “choice” by some awful terrorists, and they were killed for not becoming Muslims! So how the hell can you really believe what you have written here? Do you not know the history of the Levant? Do you not know, for instance, how even during the Ottoman period the jaziya that you claim is to protect minorities was extracted from the Maronite people of Mt. Lebanon (for instance) in the most terrible way, that essentially FORCED them to convert through economic subjugation and physical torture? They were beaten if they did not give enough in tribute, Planten. Literally beaten. I can find the references for you, if you don’t believe it. Then you can tell me, please, what “war” against Islam was happening in the Ottoman empire that would have justified that. (I’ll save you the trouble: There wasn’t one. Islam just does that anyway.)

 

[dzheremi]

How is it that you cannot be free under Islam. You mean your churches are unafe. Do you mean you cannot pray according to your own faith.

That is exactly what *(“http://catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0177.htm”) mean!

What else do you want?? What other freedom?? the proof of the good and free living for the christians is in the history when a big delegation of christians came to Madinah from Najran during the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad. The prophet put up the delegation in his mosque and allowed them to pray as they liked.

I want the adherents of your religion TODAY, RIGHT NOW, to leave adherents of my religion alone. Not to persecute them or try to force them to convert to Islam or threaten them or anything like that, but to live with them as neighbors who are truly and completely equal without respect to their different religion.

Please note all these things which are very basic and from the original beliefs of Islam. That delegation was never killed for being christian. So why are you all out to blame Islam by false accusations

Because one incident of toleration in Muhammad’s Arabia does not make up for millions of persecutions since then at the hands of his followers. Be realistic, Planten: If I come into your home and kidnap your daughter and force her to convert to Christianity (this happens in Egypt to the indigenous Coptic Christians;read this), could I turn around and brush off allegations of my wrong-doing by pointing to times in the past when Christians and Muslims generally got along better than they do now? No. I couldn’t.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I am increasingly saddened and concerned about the uncharitable manner than a huge religion is treated on this site. Islam is a beautiful religion, like so many other non-Christian ones. Nearly every religion has it’s radical elements that present a danger to us all. Islam is no different but certainly no worse than radical elements in Christianity and Judaism.

We have a large and vibrant Muslim population in this country. They are by and large very peaceable people. Yet, people act here, not like people of God, but as the worst kind of vigilante mob. People talk about Obama is if “aha, we knew he was a Muslim.” like this is something bad. He is not, of course, but if he were, so what?

It is dangerous and frightening to see God-claiming people be this racist. We are supposed, we claim to set the moral tone of the world, yet we are fast becoming the worst offenders of intolerance, racism, and hatred.

Anyone can find “books” that scream all kinds of rubbish about others. This material has always existed and sadly probably always will. Hate mongering is beneath a Christian.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

seems to me the fasted growing demographic groups are Muslim and devout, practicing Catholics… and devout Christians who don’t use artif birth contr.

you know what that means:

Some day we are going to have to duke it out with one another…

and we will win becasue we have Jesus on our side…

Well it’s easy to see why the Vatican is growing increasingly alarmed at the extreme voice of it’s American church. This kind of ugliness and threat makes you no better than the half-baked ideas you throw at the Muslim world. How dare you claim God is on your side. How dare you!

 

[planten]

That is the key, my friend. Muslims get to decide who is “peaceful”, and so, who gets to have any rights. If we deny Muhammad’s prophethood or deny that the Qur’an is the truth, then we are no longer considered “peaceful” and your stupid Islamic “justice” systems allow for all kinds of terrible things to happen to us for which we have no recourse. You KNOW this is true. Or do you not know what happens in countries like Pakistan to people charged with “blasphemy” under laws that make it a crime to insult Muhammad or the Qur’an? I’ll tell you what happens: They are put in jail for an indeterminate amount of time, killed by lynch mobs, etc. And the vast majority of cases do not actually involve any sort of blasphemy, but are motivated by personal disputes and distrust of religious minorities!

dzhereme, what you are seeing now is not islam. The Muslims are also misled like the christians. So please do not blame islam for the bad deeds of the present day muslims. Or Else take responsibility for all the bad deeds that are going on in western christian countries too.

“The wrong side of the warring parties”? Interesting…and again, completely defined by whatever Muslim cares to define it. Am I on the “wrong” side of the war if I stick to my Christian principles? It would seem that I am. Because Muhammad is a false prophet and the Qur’an is not the word of God and Islam is not the true religion, and these things are true in peace-time and in war-time. In many places in the Muslim world, I would risk my life by saying such things.

There is no religous war now. There is not to be any Jizyah. But nobody can stop or teach the Muslim bigots how to behave well to every one. You know that the Muslims are suffering all over the world. Why is that?? It is because they no nothing about the real teachings of Islam. They have some very basic mistakes in their minds. Don’t blame Islam for that. Islam teaches Love for all the peaceful people. Peaceful people are thos ewho do not fight woth any one for the sake of their religion and who do not abuse any one.

“Protection” from WHO, exactly? From MUSLIMS! Duh.

** I cannotreply to all your illness. ill feelings.**

That’s disgusting. You make me sick sometimes, Planten. But I know it is not really your fault. You are giving an Islamically prescribed answer here.

** I never try to mislead you. You are some time drifting into politics. That is not my field at all. As far as I am concerned, you may rule all over the world. You can have the world to yourself entirely. Please do not drag me into politics. And also not to make me responsible for the bad deeds of the Ignorant Muslims…**

Or it WOULD be a great work, if that were true, which it isn’t. What happened, for instance, when the Muslim mobs destroyed parts of the Abu Fana monastery in Egypt only a little while ago? It was ostensibly a “land dispute”, but still some Muslims kidnapped the monks, tortured them, and tried to force them to convert to Islam. That is an odd thing to do in a “land dispute”, don’t you think? And they were the lucky ones, those monks! They were only tortured! Others, like our beloved Chaldean martyrs Fr. Ghanni and Archibishop Rahho of Iraq were given the same “choice” by some awful terrorists, and they were killed for not becoming Muslims! So how the hell can you really believe what you have written here? Do you not know the history of the Levant? Do you not know, for instance, how even during the Ottoman period the jaziya that you claim is to protect minorities was extracted from the Maronite people of Mt. Lebanon (for instance) in the most terrible way, that essentially FORCED them to convert through economic subjugation and physical torture? They were beaten if they did not give enough in tribute, Planten. Literally beaten. I can find the references for you, if you don’t believe it. Then you can tell me, please, what “war” against Islam was happening in the Ottoman empire that would have justified that. (I’ll save you the trouble: There wasn’t one. Islam just does that anyway.)

I hope I have replied enough to your problems. May I be spared now from your questions.

 

[planten]

That

I want the adherents of your religion TODAY, RIGHT NOW, to leave adherents of my religion alone. Not to persecute them or try to force them to convert to Islam or threaten them or anything like that, but to live with them as neighbors who are truly and completely equal without respect to their different religion.

 

[planten]

**He was a high ranking christian (father), Protestant or Catholic. That is for sure. That young Jew had a bottle of wine in his hand. he was telling the Padre to uck off, you astard and he was running after the Padre to beat him.

Firstly, the pope quoted from elsewhere - he did not say ‘any bad words about your prophet’ - he quoted an extract in the context of a fairly long and scholarly speech.

**The Pope quoted very bad words. Why he could not he quote from some good reference. Anyhow, he had it and he had been highly abused with filthy language by some protestant. So that makes a balance good for him. That was not any long scholarly speech. It was rather from a very bad abusive anti-islamic speech.

We do not care about your old time rivalry between Protestants and the Catholics. That enmity and hatred is real. It is a punishment for the catholics from God.**

You as usual have no idea and look completely foolish when you talk on these subjects. The opinion of some protestant groups concerning the pope and the catholic church is rooted in centuries old european history and has nothing to do with a relatively recent speech by the pope which was misreported in a propagandist way in countries where educations is generally speaking not available to the populace as a whole, with the resulting (and not suprising) outcome been tempers fanned to a fury by ill meaning idiots.

**People are well educated and they understand the abuse as you understand the criticism of the Pope done by the Muslims. Even if it was a speech from the old times, what was the need for the Pope to do such dirty work. There was a good timely retaliation by the Muslims.

Actually, the Pope himself is the culprit in all these matters, He himself attacks Islam just to find out how much life there is in Islam now. And he is the leader of all other Catholic abusers of Islam**.

 

[GraceDK]

I am increasingly saddened and concerned about the uncharitable manner than a huge religion is treated on this site. Islam is a beautiful religion, like so many other non-Christian ones. Nearly every religion has it’s radical elements that present a danger to us all. Islam is no different but certainly no worse than radical elements in Christianity and Judaism.

We have a large and vibrant Muslim population in this country. They are by and large very peaceable people. Yet, people act here, not like people of God, but as the worst kind of vigilante mob. People talk about Obama is if “aha, we knew he was a Muslim.” like this is something bad. He is not, of course, but if he were, so what?

It is dangerous and frightening to see God-claiming people be this racist. We are supposed, we claim to set the moral tone of the world, yet we are fast becoming the worst offenders of intolerance, racism, and hatred.

Anyone can find “books” that scream all kinds of rubbish about others. This material has always existed and sadly probably always will. Hate mongering is beneath a Christian.

Islam is a beautiful religion? So what constitutes an ugly religion dear peaceloving friend?
Have you read the Koran, and have you read the Hadith? I advice you to read the Bukhari Hadiths… a splendid collection about how to crucify and maim people…
Actually the Koran curses you and calls you an infidel. Did you know that?

I am not a racist. Am I an islamophope? Hmm… perhaps. I am against Nazism. That makes me Naziphobic right? I am also against the political side of Islam, … so yes, I guess I am against this ideology too.
You should start looking into the huge persecution of Christians in the countries where Islam is dominant.
Also I want to let you know that the three main female critics of Islam: Wafa Sultan, Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji are living underground and in bullet proof homes.
Please… continue to have your eyes tighly shut to reality. its also much nicer to call one self “tolerant” right…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Islam is a beautiful religion? So what constitutes an ugly religion dear peaceloving friend?
Have you read the Koran, and have you read the Hadith? I advice you to read the Bukhari Hadiths… a splendid collection about how to crucify and maim people…
Actually the Koran curses you and calls you an infidel. Did you know that?

I am not a racist. Am I an islamophope? Hmm… perhaps. I am against Nazism. That makes me Naziphobic right? I am also against the political side of Islam, … so yes, I guess I am against this ideology too.
You should start looking into the huge persecution of Christians in the countries where Islam is dominant.
Also I want to let you know that the three main female critics of Islam: Wafa Sultan, Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji are living underground and in bullet proof homes.
Please… continue to have your eyes tighly shut to reality. its also much nicer to call one self “tolerant” right…

Perhaps you might want to revisit the OT in parts and you can see how the Christian God was used to justify the wholesale slaughter of pagans, up to an including every living thing in their communities. My point is that there is evil in every faith to the degree that people choose to use it as a weapon rather than as a means of community.

I don’t know of any ugly religions. I know of a few ugly people in most every religion however. They do not speak for the faith.

You of course need not look far into the past to see the persecutions conducted by Christians against Muslims, and Jews and virtually any other group that would not accept their faith during the great missionary eras.

I am astounded that it is somehow wrong now among the Christian right to use words like tolerance, peace, forgiveness, compassion and so on. I’m told this is kumbaya Christianity. I guess we read different bibles perhaps.

 

[dzheremi]

None of those things are “wrong”, SpiritMeadow, but it is wrong to advocate for the acceptance of an untrue religion like Islam because you feel bad about the actions of Christian missionaries, or to think that these actions somehow “even out” the violence of Islam, so that all religions are somehow equal and all that separates them is whether or not they are in the hands of “good” or “bad” people. This is the danger of false ecumenism. Do not sweep the bad deeds of any religion’s members under the table, but also do not let anything you are uncomfortable with about your own religion’s history blind you to the truth. In this case, the truth is that no matter how nice and pious individual Muslims are (and as someone with more than a couple Muslim friends, I can say that many are), Islam as a religion is incompatible with any kind of Christianity, “kumbaya” or not. I guarantee you that Muslims are not sitting around wringing their hands about their past. Neither should you.

 

[Eleve]

In this case, the truth is that no matter how nice and pious individual Muslims are (and as someone with more than a couple Muslim friends, I can say that many are), Islam as a religion is incompatible with any kind of Christianity, “kumbaya” or not.

True, but that doesn’t justify vilification of Muslims, which seems to be the chief activity of this thread.

 

[dzheremi]

I can’t speak for other people, but as you can see from the passage you quoted, I prefer to address ideologies, not individuals. I know and love many Muslims, but I hate Islamist ideologies. We are not called to love what is false and evil, but to resist it out of our love for and ultimate fidelity to the truth.

 

[planten]

Islam is a beautiful religion? So what constitutes an ugly religion dear peaceloving friend?
Have you read the Koran, and have you read the Hadith? I advice you to read the Bukhari Hadiths… a splendid collection about how to crucify and maim people…
Actually the Koran curses you and calls you an infidel. Did you know that?

Islam is a beautiful religion. It tells not to harm even one peaceful person of any faith. You please bring your formula from your book bibleNT.

I am not a racist. Am I an islamophope? Hmm… perhaps. I am against Nazism. That makes me Naziphobic right? I am also against the political side of Islam, … so yes, I guess I am against this ideology too

.

Yes please present your ideology from your book bibleNT about dealing with your enemies and oppressors and enemies of the public. Bring clear writings gospels of NT.

You should start looking into the huge persecution of Christians in the countries where Islam is dominant

.

That is not the fault of Islam. It may be the fault of the so-called Muslims or the hateful christians who abuse the others faith. Those christians cannot preach anything without abusing others.

Also I want to let you know that the three main female critics of Islam: Wafa Sultan, Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji are living underground and in bullet proof homes.
Please… continue to have your eyes tighly shut to reality. its also much nicer to call one self “tolerant” right…

**That is news to us. Islam (Quran) does not order to kill any apostate. You please bring and tell us what is the order about the apostate in your book i.e. BibleNT. There must be something to kill or not to kill the apostate or to harm or not harm the apostate.

We cannot be talking out out of our own mouth. Let us talk with reference from the holy books. Thanks.**

 

[planten]

I can’t speak for other people, but as you can see from the passage you quoted, I prefer to address ideologies, not individuals. I know and love many Muslims, but I hate Islamist ideologies. We are not called to love what is false and evil, but to resist it out of our love for and ultimate fidelity to the truth.

**dzhereme, let us talk about the ideologies please and not to discuss what the muslims are doing now. Not to discuss what the christians are doing now. Leave them alone. Now please bring from Quran what seems to hurt you. At the same time bring a better teaching from your bibleNT on the same subject which you may think is superior teaching. We will try to understand your good teachings of the bibleNT.

Please do not present anything from your mind or try to be an advocate for the bible when the bible may be quiet on that subject. Let us have some good things from the bible which you consider are missing in the Quran.

Leave the present day Muslims and christians alone. Welcome**.

 

[GraceDK]

Perhaps you might want to revisit the OT in parts and you can see how the Christian God was used to justify the wholesale slaughter of pagans, up to an including every living thing in their communities. My point is that there is evil in every faith to the degree that people choose to use it as a weapon rather than as a means of community.

I don’t know of any ugly religions. I know of a few ugly people in most every religion however. They do not speak for the faith.

You of course need not look far into the past to see the persecutions conducted by Christians against Muslims, and Jews and virtually any other group that would not accept their faith during the great missionary eras.

I am astounded that it is somehow wrong now among the Christian right to use words like tolerance, peace, forgiveness, compassion and so on. I’m told this is kumbaya Christianity. I guess we read different bibles perhaps.

I want to advice you the same as I urged someone else: if you believe that Christianity or the Bible incites terror or violence or sin, then by all means, leave it behind for you are better off without it.

I would like you too see this short clip of someone who grew up in islamic Syria for 30 years. She has seen horrors you could not imagine: youtube.com/watch?v=up3yuQDAWKQ
Since you are a woman I think you would benefit from this. If you are not touched by this I dont think you can be.

Christianity is exemplified in Christ. He is the Truth. He is complete goodness. We do not point at our selves but acknowlege we are sinners.
Islam is exactly what Muhammad said and did. He exemplifies Islam and is held in highest esteem and still imitated. He had sex with a 9 year old and killed so many…

So I dont understand people like you. You think its intolerant to be against islam. I am against all inhuman ideologies. I am pro-human, pro.human rights etc, so I must be against Islam.

 

[dzheremi]

dzhereme, let us talk about the ideologies please and not to discuss what the muslims are doing now.

What jihadists are doing now is entirely ideological. Islam has strong ideological/political components. They absolutely need to be discussed openly and frankly, most importantly not by people like me (non-Muslims), but by people like you. Are you willing to do so for the sake of your faith, or are you too uncomfortable? When I went through RCIA (classes that every adult must go through to become a Catholic) it was during the time when the child molestation scandals first happened. We DID talk about them, and we talked about the Crusades, Liberation Theology, and many other things that made some people uncomfortable.

Not to discuss what the christians are doing now. Leave them alone.

 

[distracted]

It’s as much a religion as Catholicism is. That it’s “political” does not change this - in fact, it puts one in mind of the Papacy of the 12th-17th centuries, which at various times engaged in military exploits (a Papal army was sent to Ireland in the 1640s), not to mention even less pastoral activities, such as fomenting rebellion & political assassination (Pius V & Gregory XIII come to mind). As for the countless political manoeuvres of the Papacy as one Italian principality among others, it was such entanglements that helped to bring about the Reformation: the Papacy had become so secularised, partly by those entanglements, that it had no spiritual authority left; it had frittered it all away. Julius II was as much a man of war as a bishop.​

And what other Church is also in part a sovereign state ? Popes are like Dalai Lamas: they are priest-kings. Is that good for religion ? I really we may be allowed to think not The USA solution, that separates Church & State, is far better, but it was anathema to the Church for a very long time, until Vatican 2. Until then, the rightness & desirability of uniting the two, & the enormous wrongness of separating them, had been taught by Pope after Pope.

Muslims believe as fervently in the unity of Islam as Christians do in that of the Church; their politics is not politics at all - it’s an expression of religion. The Church for a long time did not separate the two even conceptually - that is also the Muslim outlook. The conceptual distinction would have been unintelligible to most generations of Christians; as it would to Jews before the Exile.

rather irrelevent…

Jesus established ONE Church… Count 'em… ONE!!!

He didn’t say there would never be popes who did any wrong…

He never promised that everyone joining the Church would (presto chango) become perfect overnight…

but He DID promise to protect His Church from teaching error…

We could not trust anything in this world at all if we could not trust this…

 

[distracted]

Islam is a beautiful religion. It tells not to harm even one peaceful person of any faith. You please bring your formula from your book bibleNT.

.

]

Only problem is: Muslims seem to see everyone who is not Muslim as being NOT “peaceful person”

which instigates jihad…

meaning: If you are not “peaceful person” (i.e. Muslim): Convert or be killed…

 

[BobCatholic]

youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

Muslim demographics.

Much of Christianity has accepted the culture of death and homosexualizes, contracepts, aborts and euthanizes itself out of existence. Muslims have lots of babies and will conquer through that way.

 

[Agabriel]

This is positively ignorant and sickening and ugly and vile. Have you not noticed that millions of the Americans with whom you concern yourself are Muslims? Do they not get to participate in your sanitized imaginary America? Have you not read the First Amendment to the Constitution, the very first provision of which is the freedom to exercise religion? Are you not aware of the hideous history of bigotry in this country against Catholics that you now turn, with the same excuses, against Muslims? Have you been blinded to the acts of terrorism that Christians have committed in the name of their faith in this country?

Before you think of risk, think of the certain destruction of liberty and human dignity that would come from the forcible exclusion of Muslims from America.

Except that ‘religion’ in Islam means to be an imperialistic political movement. All one has to do is read the history of Islam to know that it hasn’t fared too well in toleration with others when they migrate to new lands once their numbers reach some number that they start feeling emboldened.

And it is his ‘first amendment right’ to feel as he does since the majority of Muslims don’t do anything to stop their Jihadists and instead support them with their wealth and moral support.

As for ‘ignorant and sickening and ugly and vile’, that is what the Quran’s message for us infidels is.

% of muslims and % of violence directed against non-muslims