What REALLY happened in the Garden! Women the weaker of the two sexes? (All in fun)

[simple_soul]

I was not saying God should have done anything. All I was saying was that the male waits patiently to see if the female will receive his authority. If she will take matters into her own hands (as humanity did which Eve represents) then she rebels in pride. **It was Adam’s responsibility to protect her but it was her responsibility to go to him for that protection. **That does not excuse Adam’s sin but blaming him for the whole thing is not Church teaching either!!! In fact if I understand correctly some theologians that espouse your point are in fact the feminists blaming men for yet another problem.

*Hi again Silentfactor,

This post of yours keeps running through my head especially the part that I emphasized.

I believe the reason is because I did reach a point in my life that I needed help. When I was 26, I was exploited and used for someone‘s gratification of inflicting control and complete submission out of me. I was, from what I understand, drugged, raped and then taken to a hospital for a pill to ensure that if I had become pregnant from the rape that it would be terminated. It was all done in a manner and way as to try and convince me that I was actually complicate in the guilt of it all. It did not matter how much I pleaded with him are tried to convince him to stop or that it was wrong he had his way with me and forced me to have sex with him and after he purchased the pill for me tried to force me to take it. I remember during the rape trying to tell him that having sex before I was married was wrong and he just kept ignoring me telling me it was ok and to trust him and when I kept trying to stop him he then used enough force to subdue me. The force he used caused bruising and I was sore and swollen for quite a few days after. He seemed to be convinced and did all he could to try and convince me that I some how wanted this to be done to me. I remember crying and sobbing during my rape trying to figure out how I had lead him to believe I had wanted this. He did not even stop after I had tried to tell him no this is not what I wanted. When he handed me that pill I again tried to tell him I could not take it and why. He just looked at me and seemed to say if you do not take that pill I will force you to take it. So I just pretended to take it and hid it in my mouth until after he had dropped me off at my home and then proceeded to spit it out and rinse my mouth out.
I turned to this “man” for protection because he offered to help me if I needed it. I was not protected like he offered to protect me. He actually went out of his way to offer reassurance that all he wanted to do was help me and the whole time was planning to drug me and rape when I did finally turn to him for the help and protection from making what had the potential of being the worst mistake of my life, and he did exactly that. He raped me and not only did he rape me it gave him pleasure to do it too. The fact that I struggled and put up a fight pleasured him. He was actually pleased at the pain, submission, and control but I believe what gave him the most pleasure was me being aware of what he was doing as he was doing it. To me that was pure evil.

So in short I truned to God and understood that He gave me man to protect me and and when I turned to man for the protection I needed he failed me bigtime. For the longest time I used to blaim myself for what happened that I should never have trusted in a man to protect me to begin with so I was culpable of having sex with him even though I did not want to. I am sure you do not mean this and I am sure my story is not quite the same as the Creation story regarding what happened between Adam and Eve but then again maybe it is?

The reason I am telling you this is because I believe that we really have become a people that likes to try and exploit each other instead of a people that tries to help each other. We seem to get-off at being able to get-something out of everything.
Personally I believe it starts with our understanding of “sex.” Every one seems to believe that it is for gratification to satisfy our passions. This is not what I understand sex to be for. I understand that God Creates Life through sex. This is what sex should be for. To help God in His wanting to share His Life with us. The way I see it sex, when it is rooted in sacrifice and love is life giving and works to raise each other up with respect and dignity for God and each other. Sex rooted in self gratification of the passions is rooted in plundering, using, exploiting, manipulating and raping each other to the point of killing. This is epitomized in Abortion.

I also see our passions of this world as being what allows this world, Eve, to seduce us and allows us to fall just like Adam did. When we turn to self gratification we are actually raping each other and the world and it shows in the way things are in the world today. Not only do we rape each other but we are also rape the world and all its natural resources. We as a people are not being good keepers and helpers of each other or the garden because we have been seduced by the things of this world, Eve, and instead of protecting and giving our lives to protect Eve we rape, pillage and plunder Eve so that we can satisfy our passions of greed, lust, power, thirst for knowledge…

Anyway sorry to ramble on here…just thought I would add more food for thought to the discussion I so hope and pray it makes some sense and that I am on the right track here in understanding more clearly the story of Adam and Eve…to put it as simply as I can I believe that when our love for this world, Eve, becomes greater than our Love for God this is when we turn to raping, pillaging and plundering Eve, the world instead of protecting her, Eve, the world.

Any thoughts?
*

 

[Lady_Love]

Satan, much as I hate to say it, is much too intelligent (and at the same time much too cowardly too) to tempt the more strong-willed of the two. So he picked Eve.

I actually read in the “City of God” by Mary Agreda that Satan chose Eve because he had foreknowledge that God was going to become ‘man’ someday and he dared not approach Adam on the off chance he was “Emmanuel,” God with us, and Satan knew he had no chance of deceiving God. What Satan did know, was that Eve was not God for sure, so he tempted her.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

I actually read in the “City of God” by Mary Agreda that Satan chose Eve because he had foreknowledge that God was going to become ‘man’ someday and he dared not approach Adam on the off chance he was “Emmanuel,” God with us, and Satan knew he had no chance of deceiving God. What Satan did know, was that Eve was not God for sure, so he tempted her.

My mistake. I’m sorry.

 

[Lady_Love]

*Hi again Silentfactor,

This post of yours keeps running through my head especially the part that I emphasized.

I believe the reason is because I did reach a point in my life that I needed help. When I was 26, I was exploited and used for someone‘s gratification of inflicting control and complete submission out of me. I was, from what I understand, drugged, raped and then taken to a hospital for a pill to ensure that if I had become pregnant from the rape that it would be terminated. It was all done in a manner and way as to try and convince me that I was actually complicate in the guilt of it all. It did not matter how much I pleaded with him are tried to convince him to stop or that it was wrong he had his way with me and forced me to have sex with him and after he purchased the pill for me tried to force me to take it. I remember during the rape trying to tell him that having sex before I was married was wrong and he just kept ignoring me telling me it was ok and to trust him and when I kept trying to stop him he then used enough force to subdue me. The force he used caused bruising and I was sore and swollen for quite a few days after. He seemed to be convinced and did all he could to try and convince me that I some how wanted this to be done to me. I remember crying and sobbing during my rape trying to figure out how I had lead him to believe I had wanted this. He did not even stop after I had tried to tell him no this is not what I wanted. When he handed me that pill I again tried to tell him I could not take it and why. He just looked at me and seemed to say if you do not take that pill I will force you to take it. So I just pretended to take it and hid it in my mouth until after he had dropped me off at my home and then proceeded to spit it out and rinse my mouth out.
I turned to this “man” for protection because he offered to help me if I needed it. I was not protected like he offered to protect me. He actually went out of his way to offer reassurance that all he wanted to do was help me and the whole time was planning to drug me and rape when I did finally turn to him for the help and protection from making what had the potential of being the worst mistake of my life, and he did exactly that. He raped me and not only did he rape me it gave him pleasure to do it too. The fact that I struggled and put up a fight pleasured him. He was actually pleased at the pain, submission, and control but I believe what gave him the most pleasure was me being aware of what he was doing as he was doing it. To me that was pure evil.

So in short I truned to God and understood that He gave me man to protect me and and when I turned to man for the protection I needed he failed me bigtime. For the longest time I used to blaim myself for what happened that I should never have trusted in a man to protect me to begin with so I was culpable of having sex with him even though I did not want to. I am sure you do not mean this and I am sure my story is not quite the same as the Creation story regarding what happened between Adam and Eve but then again maybe it is?

The reason I am telling you this is because I believe that we really have become a people that likes to try and exploit each other instead of a people that tries to help each other. We seem to get-off at being able to get-something out of everything.
Personally I believe it starts with our understanding of “sex.” Every one seems to believe that it is for gratification to satisfy our passions. This is not what I understand sex to be for. I understand that God Creates Life through sex. This is what sex should be for. To help God in His wanting to share His Life with us. The way I see it sex, when it is rooted in sacrifice and love is life giving and works to raise each other up with respect and dignity for God and each other. Sex rooted in self gratification of the passions is rooted in plundering, using, exploiting, manipulating and raping each other to the point of killing. This is epitomized in Abortion.

I also see our passions of this world as being what allows this world, Eve, to seduce us and allows us to fall just like Adam did. When we turn to self gratification we are actually raping each other and the world and it shows in the way things are in the world today. Not only do we rape each other but we are also rape the world and all its natural resources. We as a people are not being good keepers and helpers of each other or the garden because we have been seduced by the things of this world, Eve, and instead of protecting and giving our lives to protect Eve we rape, pillage and plunder Eve so that we can satisfy our passions of greed, lust, power, thirst for knowledge…

Anyway sorry to ramble on here…just thought I would add more food for thought to the discussion I so hope and pray it makes some sense and that I am on the right track here in understanding more clearly the story of Adam and Eve…to put it as simply as I can I believe that when our love for this world, Eve, becomes greater than our Love for God this is when we turn to raping, pillaging and plundering Eve, the world instead of protecting her, Eve, the world.

Any thoughts?
*

Wow, what a story! Thank you for sharing. It does give you insight. You could speculate that Satan was trying to rape Eve of her dignity, her communion with God, her innocence, etc. Satan was and is envious of us. You know that up until Eve was created Satan had been the most beautiful of all of God’s creation. Maybe the fact that Eve (woman) was so beautiful drove Satan over the edge with envy. What a jerk!

But God because he is such a loving Father was not going to let her perpetrator (Satan) have the last word, NO! God made a plan to restore mankind through His Son, and daughter Mary, and give us an even greater glory in the end. God is such a loving Father.

 

[Lady_Love]

I often wonder what that must have been like for Eve to fall from grace. I wonder if Adam felt the separation between them because of the sin and in his longing to be reunited with his beloved fell victim to the temptation to eat of the fruit as well. Just speculation?

Just imagine what God must have felt in that moment? Did He feel abandoned and rejected? Pushed out of the relationship between Eve and Adam? How His heart must have broke!

 

[simple_soul]

I often wonder what that must have been like for Eve to fall from grace. I wonder if Adam felt the separation between them because of the sin and in his longing to be reunited with his beloved fell victim to the temptation to eat of the fruit as well. Just speculation?

Just imagine what God must have felt in that moment? Did He feel abandoned and rejected? Pushed out of the relationship between Eve and Adam? How His heart must have broke!

and still is breaking…even after His only Son came to show us the way…and died for us…

 

[grannymh]

Dshix

I never said it was only adams fault and that eve is not guilty at all.
This is what Silent is trying to spin my posts into because I think he realized he made a mistake when we first started discussing this.

If you read all of my previous posts what I said is that the church puts the blame on Adam. That does not mean that eve has no guilt in this…of course she did.

But it was Adams job to “guard the garden”.

He was to defend his wife with his own life like Christ did for His bride when it had been attacked. As it says in Ephesians which clearly lays out the roles of husband and wife…the husband is to love his wife as "Christ loves the church. " Which means to give his life over.
They both have their roles in relationship.

They both were to be fruitful and multiply and not to eat of the fruit…but Adam and Adam alone was told to guard the garden. This is why after the sinned , God calls: “Adam, where are you?” He asked for Adam because it was Adam who had to render an account.

The church in formal prayers and the early church father’s put this primarily on Adams shoulders.

Michael

Pray tell me. How does the “job” of guarding the garden break Adam’s relationship with his Creator?

 

[chevalier]

The first part is rather narcissistic. We exist to reflect God’s nature, not give purpose to an otherwise inanimate object.

The last part is what I call deeply disturbing and vain. I’ve read several Catholic theologians propose that Eve’s sin was actually vanity for herself. In any case, the most perfect God ever created is Jesus. I think it would help you to dial down the feminine vanity and give a little heart to God’s first creation, men.

“Begotten, not created.”

 

[MichaelHowling]

dshix,

you have not read my posts. in almost half of the hundred posts I have left I have mentioned that eve had sinned. I don’t know how much else to do.

One last time on this matter:

It is known as ADAM’s sin by the church…if you have a problem with that…you have a problem with the church.

I have admonished you in charity and I have given refrences in my MANY posts.

I’m not going to talk to stone anymore . If you wish not to agree with the church, that’s your affair.

What started my conversation was Silent’s post #25 where he said that Adam was probably simply waiting to see what Eve was going to do when challenged by the devil. …

I mentioned that he was not to sit idley by while his bride was under attack. HE WAS GIVEN THE COMMAND TO GUARD THE GARDEN AND HE FAILED BY SILENTS CRUDE ASSUMPTION. That’s what our posting was about. I NEVER , NEVER mentioned that Eve was without sin.

I highly suggest you read my posts (which are many on this thread).
I won’t comment any further because you obviously wish to persist in the error.

God bless.

 

[grannymh]

I often wonder what that must have been like for Eve to fall from grace. I wonder if Adam felt the separation between them because of the sin and in his longing to be reunited with his beloved fell victim to the temptation to eat of the fruit as well. Just speculation?

Just imagine what God must have felt in that moment? Did He feel abandoned and rejected? Pushed out of the relationship between Eve and Adam? How His heart must have broke!

May I gently point out that the really real first relationship in the first three chapters of Genesis is that between Adam and God.

Of course, it is proper to examine the relationship between Adam and Eve who are both human beings. This thread has certainly been enlightening, as well as entertaining, about all the possible ins and outs of a relationship between two human persons. I am enjoying all the sincere efforts put into this thread.

 

[MichaelHowling]

granny,

It would be the same as Christ refusing to accept the cross. It would be a willful turning way (Adam/Jesus) of who they are and their call to live that out…their husbandry and high priesthood. If Adam did not even know who he was internally…what he was called to be, his relationship with God would be wounded as well. Just as sin is not a prerequist to be human…it actually makes us less human in a sense. Sin or a turning away of what we are harms our relationship with God! Since we were made in God’s image and likeness…with intellect will and live in a “family/trinity” …we are called to live in a family…therefore, we need to know what it means to be such and the deffinitions of husband/father are important to understanding who God is. God’s image is stamped into our very bodies…what makes a husband a husband and wife a wife and that they are life-giving speak of who God is! If he did not understand/live out his call to be husband…his relationship with God was harmed.

The first Adam met the “trial” in a garden

Jesus met it in the garden of gethsemene

Adam may of had to give his life at a tree…as did Jesus (the perfect bridegroom).

 

[grannymh]

dshix,

you have not read my posts. in almost half of the hundred posts I have left I have mentioned that eve had sinned. I don’t know how much else to do.

One last time on this matter:

It is known as ADAM’s sin by the church…if you have a problem with that…you have a problem with the church.

I have admonished you in charity and I have given refrences in my MANY posts.

I’m not going to talk to stone anymore . If you wish not to agree with the church, that’s your affair.

What started my conversation was Silent’s post #25 where he said that Adam was probably simply waiting to see what Eve was going to do when challenged by the devil. …

I mentioned that he was not to sit idley by while his bride was under attack. HE WAS GIVEN THE COMMAND TO GUARD THE GARDEN AND HE FAILED BY SILENTS CRUDE ASSUMPTION. That’s what our posting was about. I NEVER , NEVER mentioned that Eve was without sin.

I highly suggest you read my posts (which are many on this thread).
I won’t comment any further because you obviously wish to persist in the error.

God bless.

May I humbly suggest that the real difficulty in the above is that there are two types of sin which took place in the organic garden. The first type of sin is called personal. Both Adam and Eve personally committed sin by eating the forbidden fruit. What you are correctly referring to is that Adam, being the original human, committed the Original Sin which originally shattered humanity’s relationship with divinity. Adam could commit this Original Sin, not because he was the chief gardener and the spouse of Eve. Adam could commit Original Sin because the whole human race was in him “as one body of one man”. (CCC 404 ; St. Thomas Aquinas, DeMalo 4, 1)

 

[dshix]

dshix,

you have not read my posts. in almost half of the hundred posts I have left I have mentioned that eve had sinned. I don’t know how much else to do.

One last time on this matter:

It is known as ADAM’s sin by the church…if you have a problem with that…you have a problem with the church.

I have admonished you in charity and I have given refrences in my MANY posts.

I’m not going to talk to stone anymore . If you wish not to agree with the church, that’s your affair.

What started my conversation was Silent’s post #25 where he said that Adam was probably simply waiting to see what Eve was going to do when challenged by the devil. …

I mentioned that he was not to sit idley by while his bride was under attack. HE WAS GIVEN THE COMMAND TO GUARD THE GARDEN AND HE FAILED BY SILENTS CRUDE ASSUMPTION. That’s what our posting was about. I NEVER , NEVER mentioned that Eve was without sin.

I highly suggest you read my posts (which are many on this thread).
I won’t comment any further because you obviously wish to persist in the error.

God bless.

Hi Michael,

I decided to read this thread from the beginning to get a full assessment of the situation again. I now see that you did say from the beginning that both Adam and Eve were culpable.

I’m not exactly sure what happened, but I guess I somehow didn’t see your posts until after post 85, in which you were mostly mentioning Adam, and this gave me a wrong impression of the conversation. I now see the whole picture and see that that you are right.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

God Bless!

 

[grannymh]

granny,

It would be the same as Christ refusing to accept the cross. It would be a willful turning way (Adam/Jesus) of who they are and their call to live that out…their husbandry and high priesthood. If Adam did not even know who he was internally…what he was called to be, his relationship with God would be wounded as well. Just as sin is not a prerequist to be human…it actually makes us less human in a sense. Sin or a turning away of what we are harms our relationship with God! Since we were made in God’s image and likeness…with intellect will and live in a “family/trinity” …we are called to live in a family…therefore, we need to know what it means to be such and the deffinitions of husband/father are important to understanding who God is. God’s image is stamped into our very bodies…what makes a husband a husband and wife a wife and that they are life-giving speak of who God is! If he did not understand/live out his call to be husband…his relationship with God was harmed.

The first Adam met the “trial” in a garden

Jesus met it in the garden of gethsemene

Adam may of had to give his life at a tree…as did Jesus (the perfect bridegroom).

I am beginning to wonder if the above originated in a book by Matthew Fox. Or perhaps that popular book/text by one of the authors on symbolism. A long time ago, a CAF poster referred to her and dang it I did not save her name. However, I do recall that there were a bunch of “feminists” who were writing about the same time. Nothing against feminists per se, but some of them were …

I believe that the whole point of these popular books was to delete the Catholic doctrines (plural intended) about Original Sin. Apparently, this effort succeeded in many geographic locations.

 

[MichaelHowling]

granny on your post 131: yes, but I also tie in the fact that Adam was given a specific mandate by being a husband (which Ephesians describes what a husband is to do …to love the wife to the point of death as Christ did). I suggest that this is why God calls to Adam after the fall to render an account…not Eve. It’s not that she didn’t sin, but Adam failed by “leaveing the door unlocked” if you will.

On your post 133:

Lol, no…
I was not thinking of a femenist. The first half I gleaned from theology of the body and ephesians and the comparison bit at the end … I got from the great theologian Dr. Scott Hahn. He often uses typology to explain things.

thank you dshix…phew…i though i was going crazy.

 

[grannymh]

granny on your post 131: yes, but I also tie in the fact that Adam was given a specific mandate by being a husband (which Ephesians describes what a husband is to do …to love the wife to the point of death as Christ did). I suggest that this is why God calls to Adam after the fall to render an account…not Eve. It’s not that she didn’t sin, but Adam failed by “leaveing the door unlocked” if you will.

On your post 133:

Lol, no…
I was not thinking of a femenist. The first half I gleaned from theology of the body and ephesians and the comparison bit at the end … I got from the great theologian Dr. Scott Hahn. He often uses typology to explain things.

thank you dshix…phew…i though i was going crazy.

From what I am reading, it does not look like you are factoring in the real Original Sin along with personal sin. Usually, the typology used by Dr. Scott Hahn is that between equals in some sense. Original Sin is not the same as personal sin. One cannot be used as a type of similarity with the other except for certain facts such as both Original Sin and personal sin require a free, informed decision to do so.

Also, Dr. Hahn often uses comparisons; however, these do not imply that the original Catholic doctrine is voided. His comparisons between Old Testament and New Testament are made to broaden our understanding of a basic doctrine such as Original Sin.

By the way, you refer to the sin of Adam, have you ever used the words Original Sin?

 

[Nimzovik]

Satan, much as I hate to say it, is much too intelligent (and at the same time much too cowardly too) to tempt the more strong-willed of the two. So he picked Eve.

You mean so she picked eve?

 

[dshix]

You mean so she picked eve?

You see Satan as female? Technically, Satan is genderless, but it is conventional to call him male.

 

[silentfactor80]

Hi Michael,

I decided to read this thread from the beginning to get a full assessment of the situation again. I now see that you did say from the beginning that both Adam and Eve were culpable.

I’m not exactly sure what happened, but I guess I somehow didn’t see your posts until after post 85, in which you were mostly mentioning Adam, and this gave me a wrong impression of the conversation. I now see the whole picture and see that that you are right.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

God Bless!

MichaelHowling was suggesting that Eve sinned because it was Adam’s fault. My point from the gitko was that Eve is responsible for her own sin. Regardless of what Adam did or didn’t do Eve’s obeying God has nothing to do with Adam. MichaelHowling blaming Adam is no different than Adam blaming Eve. Let us look at the punishment though. The punishment for woman was much more severe. I highly doubt if she just made an innocent mistake because of “Adam’s failure” God would have been so harsh on her. I mean painful child birth and giving man dominion over her? That’s pretty harsh for someone who was just the “victim of somone else’s sin” as MichaelHowling is selling up there. Also, if Adam screwed up so badly why would God make Adam into Eve’s master?? Twice is a charm?

I know what the Church teaches MichaelHowling and I think you are misusing that teaching in this debate. Your argument is unbalanced because you ONLY talk about Adam’s failure. Also, it is the woman’s job to be a helpmate. If God thought Adam could protect the garden alone he would not created bothered creating Eve. God even says it is not good for man to be alone. Why? Because it is too big a job for 1 person!!! Everything God charges men with are carried over to women since women are a part of man!! That includes protecting the garden!!!

 

[dshix]

MichaelHowling was suggesting that Eve sinned because it was Adam’s fault. My point from the gitko was that Eve is responsible for her own sin. Regardless of what Adam did or didn’t do Eve’s obeying God has nothing to do with Adam. MichaelHowling blaming Adam is no different than Adam blaming Eve. Let us look at the punishment though. The punishment for woman was much more severe. I highly doubt if she just made an innocent mistake because of “Adam’s failure” God would have been so harsh on her.

I know what the Church teaches MichaelHowling and I think you are misusing that teaching in this debate. Your argument is unbalanced because you ONLY talk about Adam’s failure. Also, it is the woman’s job to be a helpmate. If God thought Adam could protect the garden alone he would not created bothered creating Eve. God even says it is not good for man to be alone. Why? Because it is too big a job for 1 person!!! Everything God charges men with are carried over to women since women are a part of man!! That includes protecting the garden!!!

Actually, Adam was at fault for letting the serpent get to Eve in the first place. He wasn’t at fault for her decision, but he failed in defending the garden.

How do you get the idea that Eve was punished worse than Adam?