What should Luther have done?

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When Luther was before the Pope’s Legate he stated.

If the doctrine of indulgences could be proved from the papal constitution itself, he would retract.

The prelate was not able to answer this and replied: Retract, or I will send you to Rome, there to appear before the judges commissioned to take cognizance of your case. I will excommunicate you and all your partisans, and all who shall at any time countenance you, and will cast them out of the church. Full power has been given me for this purpose by the holy apostolic see. Think you that your protectors will stop me? Do you imagine that the pope can fear Germany? The pope’s little finger is stronger than all Germany put together."
 
carol marie,

The Church has never, is not, nor ever will be “a mess”. The Church is made up of men and women who may sin but the Church does not.

If you read and study the 95 Thesis that Martin defiled Gods house with you will find that he was misleading or mis-stated every one of his objections. For a so-called Doctor he did not do a good job of explaining the Dagma of the Church or its teachings.

The Church still has indulgences today and as far as I know it has never backed off on them. They are good and serve God in the way they are designed today as they did 600 years ago…

Be leary of what some people (or religions) say either for or against Martin. Some are bias both ways and from what you wrote to start this thread I believe somebody gave you some very bias and missleading information at best.

Read the book The Facts About Luther. It was written by a Christian defending Christ’s body with some of the same passion Martin attacked it. The author did not lower himself to Martins level of sin or rude and vulgar language though. There are also other good books by protestants that deal honestly with Luther. You must sift through the data and find the truth for it is often hidden in propaganda.

There are other threads about Luther, I suggest you read some of those for more information.

Seek the truth, it is out there!

PS. I went to a Lutheran church in Utah and would be Lutheran today if not for a Baptist preacher in Tooele, UT that ‘saved’ me and started me on the road home to the Catholic Church. I loved the Lutheran church, its teachings and its people. It wasn’t till after I was sent on my spiritual journey in the Baptist church that I learned the truth about Luther and his herisey! The Lutherans today have even disregarded and ignored much of what Martin taught and accepted back much of what he destroyed. Overall though, for an apostate church, the Lutheran church is one of the closest protestant churches to the Gospel of Christ and it is filled with great Christians doing good ‘deeds’ in His name. Great people, great Christians. My disdain is for Martin the heritic not the good people he misslead. After all, I was attending that church too at one time.
 
Have any of you seen Luther’s handwritten translations of Aesop’s Fables at the Vatican website? Pretty cool.
 
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RobedWithLight:
Well, a lot of Catholic saints stayed **within **the Catholic Church while zealously working for reform and renewal… and they succeeded, despite immense odds and sometimes, even opposition from within the Church. Patience, diligence and Christian virtue were their hallmarks. St. Catherine of Sienna is one good example. Was she excommunicated? No. Was St. Bernard of Clairvaux excommunicated? No. They worked within the Church and eventually was rewarded by being canonized as saints!

Gerry 🙂
Joan of Arc was also rewarded by being canonized as a saint.:rolleyes:

Alan
 
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tru_dvotion:
And that would have been a terrible loss to the Church (The New German Testament), especially as opposed to the loss of our separated brethren who are currently members of over 3000 Christian denominations? 😦
Maybe things aren’t all that bad. After all,
Rom 8:28:
We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
Do we consider those Christians as part of the body of Christ? If so, then we need them as the hand needs the foot. If not, remember:
Mark 9:38-41:
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.”
Perhaps Christ would like to have all Christians be Catholics, but I can’t help but believe this is all part of God’s plan. They sold Jesus’s garments, we take pieces of saints and shred them so we will all have relics apart from the “original” body. I figure Christ probably dwells in the hearts of Protestants just like He does in Catholics.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Perhaps Christ would like to have all Christians be Catholics, but I can’t help but believe this is all part of God’s plan.
No my friend. Over 3000 denominations broken into bits was not God’s plan. Nooooooooooo way!:nope:
 
What many people don’t know that after a catholic and Lutheran dialgoe took place after the hothead Luther died.
The original Lutherans never saw themselves as anything but Catholics Melancthon beleived he was a Caholic and sought full communion with Rome after Luther died. But ultimately Luther had so many innovations reconciliation could not have taken place.
IF Luther had stopped at the 95 theses and did not invent Sola fide and Sola Scriptura. There would have been a strong possibility the schims would have been temporary. Looking at the reforms of Vatican 2 and the church finally got to many of the origianl concerns of Luther. Luther’s temperment and the indifferantism of the midevil popes would have made reconcilliation doubtful in Luther’s lifetime even if he just stuck with the 95 thesis. Ultiamtely Luther’s temper and penchant for making himslef the ultimate authority assured a secure break with the catholic church.
Melanchton while symphathetic to the catholic church postion felt a deep loyalty to his spirtual leader and desired to not compromise too much with the church. If Luther had somehwo died early on and Melancton was handed the torch perhaps things would have turned out different. As Melancton was more of a diplomat than the bomb thrower that Luther was.
When I read Luther I think of a midevil James Carville throwing exagerrated bombs that would take several novels to answer. By that time the damage was done. Examples:
Pope is the anti-christ. We are at the end of the world. THe Church is the WHore of Babylon.
Please Luther get a hold of yourself!

I just picture Luther going to the pearly gates where he meets guess who Saint Peter. He ask well you have the keys am I in or not? WEll you were going to hell but since you prayed your rosary Mary put a good word in for you so you barely made it out of there but your not going to heaven for awhile either.
Lutehr says well there is no where else so what am I going to do wait on these steps outside of the gate until the end of the world.
Saint Pete says yes this is your purgatory.
Luterh says dammit I thought this place didn’t exist.
Saint Pete says well you should of asked the Pope he would have told you better.
 
Thanks to all who responded with excellent points. I think the trouble with history is there’s always two sides and it’s difficult to know which side is more accurate. I’ve been taught the Lutheran-bias side and you guys know the Catholic bias side. Somewhere in the middle or there about is probably much of the truth. Bottom line for me with regards to Luther and other Catholic issues that I’m not so sure about it this: Because the Catholic Church is the chruch Jesus himself established, is it true that all authority the Church has is approved by God? If I can come to terms (and it’s a looooooooong way to go for a Protestant) that if the Catholic Church says so, so that’s the way God wants it then I think I’m home free. Because with regards to Luther, if the issues he brought up were true problems, perhaps he should have worked within the church to correct them, like the other Saints you mentioned. God Bless, CM
 
Steven Merten:
Hello Carol Marie,

Most countries, companies, groups, organizations and clubs put one person in unequaled authority over all other members in the group. They do so to unite the group in the direction all group members will be compeled to follow. Rather than having twelve leaders equally pulling the group in twelve different directions, groups give one person unequaled authority to unite the group.

%between%
Just wanted to make a brief point here. You can’t compare the papal office with the presidential office or club office or organizational office. I know you don’t mean to put them on the same level, but you used that faulty comparison to help your point on the papal office.

At least in all those other examples (presidential, club, etc) you have the option as a citizen, lay person, etc to kick them out when they are not doing their job to certain standards of conduct. That’s not the way the papal office works as you well know.
 
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Maccabees:
I just picture Luther going to the pearly gates where he meets guess who Saint Peter. He ask well you have the keys am I in or not? WEll you were going to hell but since you prayed your rosary Mary put a good word in for you so you barely made it out of there but your not going to heaven for awhile either.
Lutehr says well there is no where else so what am I going to do wait on these steps outside of the gate until the end of the world.
Saint Pete says yes this is your purgatory.
Luterh says dammit I thought this place didn’t exist.
Saint Pete says well you should of asked the Pope he would have told you better.
This is one perfect example of why I haven’t entered the roman catholic church. Dreadful, absolutely dreadful commentary unfit for a Christian forum. The only person I want to see and ask if I can enter in is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not one of his apostles. You do the faith a terrible disservice, “sir”.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Dear ahimsa,

I responded to the joke at the end of the previous post. It WAS funny!Where is your sense of humor? Why are you judgmental?
God bless your day!👋
Would you find it funny if I made a similar joke about Pope J.P. II using Lutheran theology?

Martin Luther does have to wait till the end of time to enter the gates of heaven if he is saved. He like others will have to wait till judgment day asleep in Christ.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Yes I would, provided it was a good joke. Lighten up, you will feel much better.🙂
Fine I will do one but with a fictitious person so as not to offend.

A man named Harry goes stands before the gates.
Peter comes up to him and asks Harry, “Why should you enter the gates of Heaven?”

Harry replies, “Because I have fed the poor, said a prayer every day at bedtime for the last 50 years of my life, went to confession every week, attended every Sunday Mass that I possibly could, and I have taken the Eucharist also.”

Peter asks, “Have you kept his commandments?”

The man replies, “Yes”

Peter asks, “Did you give away all of your worldly possessions?”

The man quietly replies, “No.”

Peter states, ”Do you not know that it is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of Heaven?”

With this the man looks sad and starts to walk away.

As the man turns Peter askes, “In all that you have done have you done it because of your faith.”

The man replies, “yes”

Peter states, “Then you have done this with God and with God anything is possible. You may enter the gates of Heaven, but first you will have to wait for a few harlots that are scheduled to enter the Gates before you.”

“Oh and by the way I am sick and tired of standing, you haven’t happened to seen my chair have you. I know it is around here somewhere.”
 
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tru_dvotion:
Dear ahimsa,

I responded to the joke at the end of the previous post. It WAS funny!Where is your sense of humor? Why are you judgmental?
God bless your day!👋
It was a callous, slanderous statement which 1) attempts to belittle a dead man and
2)assumes that dead man’s fate (which is something the Catholic church doesn’t even do). Considering the statements made above this “joke”, I wouldn’t call it much of joke, but a slander of a man’s character.

Salvation is such a serious thing. It should never been taken lightly. My sense of humor ends there. I rebuked Maccabees and you for his statements and the lack of humility and concern over a person’s eternal life. Has nothing to do with “judgemental”. As a fellow Christian in defense of a dead Christian man, I felt you both deserved the rebuke. I have no ill feelings toward either of you.
 
ahimsaman72,

It must be a great burden on you to be so serious all the time. One tends to miss out on a lot that way. I will pray for you.❤️
 
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tru_dvotion:
ahimsaman72,

It must be a great burden on you to be so serious all the time. One tends to miss out on a lot that way. I will pray for you.❤️
I appreciate any prayers thrown my way. Being serious about salvation is a great burden, one that we all should take into account, because if we really believe there is a hell and that it is hot and torturous and many of our friends and loved ones and strangers go there, that fact alone should make us witness for Christ at every opportunity.

You assume I don’t ever laugh. I do. I believe laughter is indeed good medicine. Jokes and laughter at someone else’s expense (especially a dead man) is never acceptable. I assure you I find much in life enjoyable - especially a good laugh with friends, and especially at my own expense. That’s when it’s best. I enjoy my Christian faith, family, friends, work, reading and many other things.

I will pray for you that you not miss out on some serious opportunities to witness for your faith.

Again, my humor ends at salvation. Yours should too.

God bless…
 
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