What should Luther have done?

[tru_dvotion]

ahimsaman72:

Frankly, I have no interest in Mariology. I agree that at this point in my faith life it would be utterly useless. Does it have to be useful in my faith life? I am glad to hear of your love for Christ. After all, he is your Redeemer. I say this with love and without malice, believe me.

Do you believe Mother Mary is Co-Redemptrix with Christ?

These are Dogmas of my faith relating to our Holy Mother. This is what I believe. If the Magisterium ever declares it a dogma, (Mary as Co-Redemptrix) I will embrace it the same as I have embraced all the other dogmas of my Church. But to this date it is not a Dogma and so I may have a personal opinion on it, however, what it is… is quite irrelevant.

Mary’s Motherhood of God

**Mary is truly the Mother of God. (De fide.) **

The Privileges of the Mother of God

**Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin. (De fide.) **

**From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.) **

**In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) She was immune from all sin mortal and venial. **

**Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ. **

**Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the co-operation of man. (De fide.) **

**Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.) **

**Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.) **

**Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.) **

**Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.) **

Mary’s Co-operation in the Work of the Redeemer

**Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.) **

**Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.) **

**Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her co-operation in the Incarnation. (Mediatio in universali.) **

**Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.) **

**Mary, the Mother of God, is entitled to the Cult of Hyperdulia. (Sent certa.) **

 

[Savagedds]

If I may turn the conversation back to Luther for a moment… I have seen a lot of good posts that state (correctly, IMO) that Luther should have kept his head better and worked within the Church for reform, as others have done.

For me, the moral of the story is that Truth cannot be sacrificed even for morality. Even in the face of gross immorality on the part of the pope and throughout the Church, which we all admit existed at the time.

Luther abandoned the truth, denied sound doctrine, invented new doctrines, and altered Sacred Scripture to fit his new doctrines. As a result Christian unity has been harmed, for the time being at least. God can and will bring good from evil as He has before, but that can never excuse rejecting Christ’s authority, which is in the hands of the Church He founded.

My two pfennigs.

Pax Christi,

Jim

 

[RBushlow]

**It is my understanding that most Catholics agree that when Martin Luther broke away, the Church was indeed a mess. I’ve heard that the Pope was terrible, indulgences were being sold and the sinful clergy that Luther had such a problem with were truly awful. I’ve also been taught (granted, by the Lutheran church) that Luther didn’t want to break away, he wanted to bring abut reform within the Church but that the Pope was so corrupt he booted him out (and then tried to have him murdered.) So here’s my question: What should Luther have done differently? Should he have just kept quiet when he was told to do so??? **

The Church was also in a mess at many times throught the Churches history. In particular 300 years or so before Luther there were many problems. At that time God told Francis of Assissi “rebuild my church”. Francis did battle to rebuild the Church, he did not break away from it. It was certainly not easy for Blessed Francis, the right road is often narrow and difficult to travel, but he persevered and corrected the errors rampant at his time. Too bad Luther took the other path.

 

[ahimsaman72]

tru_dvotion:

These are Dogmas of my faith relating to our Holy Mother. This is what I believe. If the Magisterium ever declares it a dogma, (Mary as Co-Redemptrix) I will embrace it the same as I have embraced all the other dogmas of my Church. But to this date it is not a Dogma and so I may have a personal opinion on it, however, what it is… is quite irrelevant.

Thank you for clearing that up. Peace…

 

[RBushlow]

ahimsaman72:

]. . . picture Luther going to the pearly gates where he meets guess who Saint Peter. He ask well you have the keys am I in or not? WEll you were going to hell but since you prayed your rosary Mary put a good word in for you so you barely made it out of there but your not going to heaven for awhile either.
Lutehr says well there is no where else so what am I going to do wait on these steps outside of the gate until the end of the world.
Saint Pete says yes this is your purgatory.
Luterh says dammit I thought this place didn’t exist.
Saint Pete says well you should of asked the Pope he would have told you better./QUOTE]
This is one perfect example of why I haven’t entered the roman catholic church. Dreadful, absolutely dreadful commentary unfit for a Christian forum. The only person I want to see and ask if I can enter in is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not one of his apostles. You do the faith a terrible disservice, “sir”.

That’s funny, my Lutheran friends thought it was quite humorous.

 

[RNRobert]

ahimsaman72:

Trust me, I’m far from being a model Christian. Maccabees’ sentiments I have found indicative of not a few lay Catholics and higher up.
I don’t judge the whole catholic church by his behavior. It’s one piece of the whole. His post was simply one of many perfect examples of problems I have found with Catholicism.

I do not believe this problem is unique to Catholics or Catholicism, and that examples can be found in whatever denomination you choose. Some of the things said about Protestants or Protestantism on this forum are mild compared to some of the slanderous assaults I’ve heard Protestants say about the Catholic Church in print, on the web or other forums. If you’re looking for a perfect church, trust me, you ain’t gonna find it.

 

[Shibboleth]

This may be a bit of a surprise but I have no problem with the concept of a Pope as a head Bishop. He is needed at times to help prevent schism. During the Arian Heresy it was very necessary to have the Super Bishops of Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch elevated to that level.

At the Joint Council of Rimini-Seluecia there were 500+ Bishops that adopted an Arian Creed. Obviously someone had to put the debate to rest.

Where I have a problem and Luther has a problem and the Eastern Orthodox Church has a problem is with the elevation of the Bishop of Rome to an infallible level.

I personally like what Saint Jerome said about the issue. newadvent.org/cathen/08341a.htm

When someone asked him why the Church was founded upon Peter he stated this.

“Although the same is done in another place upon all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church is made solid upon them all equally, yet one of them is elected among the twelve, that by the setting up of a head the occasion of schism may be removed.”

“Wheresoever a bishop is – whether at Rome or at Eugubium, at Constantinople or at Rhegium, or at Alexandria, or at Tanis, he is of the same worth, and also of the same priesthood (ejusdem est meriti, ejusdem est et sacerdotii). The power of riches and the lowliness of poverty do not make a bishop more exalted or more low. Besides, they are all the successors of the Apostles.”

But now in response to everything we have the Eastern Orthodox Church, The Protestants, and most recently the ‘S’ people of which we dare not name.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Shibboleth:

Would you find it funny if I made a similar joke about Pope J.P. II using Lutheran theology?

How about joking about Catholic practices?

About 25 years ago, I went to college in Terre Haute, Indiana and often visited Indiana State University’s Catholic Student Center, which held midnight Mass on Sunday mornings. For the ISU talent show, we wowed them, where I played piano and students dressed in authentic nun and priest robes and danced to the tune of “Vatican Rag” by Tom Lehrer. If you can find a copy, you should listen to it, although it’s probably funnier to Catholics with a good sense of humor than others unless they know all the Catholic customs. If you’re a Catholic without a sense of humor about Catholic practices, you should NOT listen to it or read the lyrics below…
Tom Lehrer:

First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin’ the Vatican Rag.

Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who’s got religion’ll
Tell you if your sin’s original.
If it is, try playin’ it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!

So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!

Make a cross on your abdomen,
When in Rome do like a Roman,
Ave Maria,
Gee it’s good to see ya,
Gettin’ ecstatic an’
Sorta dramatic an’
Doin’ the Vatican Rag!

Alan

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

ahimsaman72:

Thank you for clearing that up. Peace…

I think you may not understand what co-redemptrix means. It in no way equates Mary with Jesus, nor does it say anyone but Jesus is the one mediator with the Father. Please give the link a try and start anew thread with any questions or objections you may have.

Protestants object to this , saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God’s plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.

Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer–it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God’s plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.

Please, if you genuinely want to understand please read this document.

Mary Mediatrix

 

[ahimsaman72]

RNRobert:

I do not believe this problem is unique to Catholics or Catholicism, and that examples can be found in whatever denomination you choose. Some of the things said about Protestants or Protestantism on this forum are mild compared to some of the slanderous assaults I’ve heard Protestants say about the Catholic Church in print, on the web or other forums. If you’re looking for a perfect church, trust me, you ain’t gonna find it.

I don’t defend anyone, protestant or catholic who slanders and assaults another. I’m not looking for perfect people or perfect church, just the closest that I can get to perfect. What would be the point of doing otherwise? If I believed everything a baptist believed but went to a catholic church, that wouldn’t make sense, would it? I realize that if I found the perfect church, I better not join it because I’ll mess it up! See, I do have a sense of humor sometimes.

 

[ahimsaman72]

RBushlow:

That’s funny, my Lutheran friends thought it was quite humorous.

I will repeat myself yet another time, if you look at the WHOLE post wherein this joke resides, you will see why I rebuked Maccabees. He vented catholic theology about the papal office and then proceeded with his joke. It was done at Luther’s expense who can’t even defend himself.

Did you show your Lutheran friends the whole post? I didn’t think so.

 

[carol_marie]

ahimsaman72:

I have read from another catholic website that bishops around the world and lay people have written to Pope JP11 to have it infallibly taught as true. Yes, eventually Mary will be taught as co-redemptrix.

This sentence freaks me out… is this true? It makes it sound SO MUCH like Mary will be considered our redeemer! I read a different post where the word co-redemptrix was broken down from it’s original meaning- woman with redeemer, but since Greek or whatever language that came from is NOT what we’re using, why use that term when it makes it seem like you’re saying she’s our reedemer, just like Christ? Answer me this please… is Mary considered to be on par with Jesus? On par really isn’t a good term because of course she’s Christ-like in that she always obeyed God etc. but you know what I mean… can we all agree that Jesus (God) is like WAY WAY WAY above Mary - who was just a person (yes, quite possibly the greatest person who ever lived but still just a person…) Can we all agree to that?
P.S. What does dogma mean?

 

[Shibboleth]

carol marie:

This sentence freaks me out… is this true? It makes it sound SO MUCH like Mary will be considered our redeemer! I read a different post where the word co-redemptrix was broken down from it’s original meaning- woman with redeemer, but since Greek or whatever language that came from is NOT what we’re using, why use that term when it makes it seem like you’re saying she’s our reedemer, just like Christ? Answer me this please… is Mary considered to be on par with Jesus? On par really isn’t a good term because of course she’s Christ-like in that she always obeyed God etc. but you know what I mean… can we all agree that Jesus (God) is like WAY WAY WAY above Mary - who was just a person (yes, quite possibly the greatest person who ever lived but still just a person…) Can we all agree to that?
P.S. What does dogma mean?

Hahaha…

It is great to have fresh minds. I work in downtown Saint Paul. I can tell when someone from a small town is new to the city because they look up all wide-eyed at the tall buildings. I envy them because I did the same at one time.

Yes I agree that Mary is far under Jesus. This concept frightens me a bit also. The Arian Heresy that I mentioned above was a wide held belief that Jesus was not born God but became The Son of God and the second trinity though his perfection here on Earth. He was begotten man but became the messiah.

Now it seems that it is almost being done with Mary. Certainly she lived a pious life far above what anyone of us could hope and she was the Mother of Jesus, but all glory goes to God in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

A dogma is a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

 

[mark_a]

ahimsaman72:

This is one perfect example of why I haven’t entered the roman catholic church. Dreadful, absolutely dreadful commentary unfit for a Christian forum. The only person I want to see and ask if I can enter in is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not one of his apostles. You do the faith a terrible disservice, “sir”.

We sometimes forget that people outside the (Catholic) “family” participate in these forums. We, as human persons, are just as terrible as any denomination. We don’t have a leg up on the competition. We fail to hold ourselves up to the higher standard we expect from other Catholic christians.

Remember Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? The reason he converted to Islam was because Christians are, as a group, the most un-Christlike people on Earth. Or something to that effect. Things must have been pretty bad, huh?

Find your truth. If you find it in the Catholic Church don’t let us scare you away.

Have a nice day.

 

[RNRobert]

mark a:

Find your truth. If you find it in the Catholic Church don’t let us scare you away.

Have a nice day.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

carol marie:

This sentence freaks me out… is this true? It makes it sound SO MUCH like Mary will be considered our redeemer!

No. Please read this to understand what Catholics mean when they say co-redemptrix. Don’t base your judgement on what you think it means, base it on what the people who believe have defined it to mean by the grace of the Holy Spirit. In other words, find out and put your fears to rest. It’s really not that complicated.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Shibboleth:

Certainly she lived a pious life far above what anyone of us could hope and she was the Mother of Jesus, but all glory goes to God in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mary does not add or subtract from the perfect and infinite Glory of God; she is a created creature like you or me. She cooperates in God’s plan and has a unique place because God willed it so. Change the but in your sentence to an and and you’ve got it!

heh, maybe I’ll add this to my sig…

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[ahimsaman72]

carol marie:

This sentence freaks me out… is this true? It makes it sound SO MUCH like Mary will be considered our redeemer! I read a different post where the word co-redemptrix was broken down from it’s original meaning- woman with redeemer, but since Greek or whatever language that came from is NOT what we’re using, why use that term when it makes it seem like you’re saying she’s our reedemer, just like Christ? Answer me this please… is Mary considered to be on par with Jesus? On par really isn’t a good term because of course she’s Christ-like in that she always obeyed God etc. but you know what I mean… can we all agree that Jesus (God) is like WAY WAY WAY above Mary - who was just a person (yes, quite possibly the greatest person who ever lived but still just a person…) Can we all agree to that?
P.S. What does dogma mean?

Here is one of many links to a site that explains this. If you do a search in any search engine, you can come up with the same.
mmp-usa.net/redemp_med.htm

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

ahimsaman72:

Here is one of many links to a site that explains this. If you do a search in any search engine, you can come up with the same.
mmp-usa.net/redemp_med.htm

hmm I’ll have to read that. more than in my link. thanks

There’s a lot of private revelation in that link and that’s more than I know. I’m more comfortable sticking to magisterial teachings and Lourdes and Fatima but I have a lot to learn though. No catholic is required to assent to private revelation, I believe, so I’d go with the EWTN link for a better understanding of this serious theological concept and not confuse it with private revelations which has always controversies of authenticity, whereas the magisterial teaching is founded on Christ’s promise to Peter.

peace

 

[francisca]

Pax:

If you want to know what Luther should have done read the lives of Catherine of Sienna, Francis of Assisi, and the other saints listed in one of the prior posts. Compare what they did and said with what he did, and you will see a world of difference.

I used to believe this too. I used to think, if only Luther did it differently…

But when I see how catholics are “anti Luther” even after five hundreds of years, and even after the catholic church made a joint declaration with them… I don’t think so.

This reformation is still going on and on and on and on… until all people bow their knees and said “no authority is higher than Jesus”, and no other ROCK but Jesus’s ROCK, and there will be one Shepherd and one Flock.