What should Luther have done?

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Shibboleth:
Yes, in reference to the Magisterium and the Catholic Church he was a heretic. If you say this to an educated Lutheran they will probably respond with a shrug followed by a nonchalant “whatever.”
I agree. If he is a heretic then why the church make a joint declaration with the followers of a heretic?
I suppose that well informed Catholics due the same when certain people refer to the Pope as the Anti-Christ.
Well informed catholic would not base their faith on any “anti”. Instead he would search and ponder on what is truthful. What Paul said in the book of Romans and Galatians are very imporant issue. No one can take that lightly, so the church has seen this as very imporant. But some superficial understanding on this can come out with empty “slogans” that only divide the church the more.

God bless.
 
OK, so I read the EWTN link that someone posted (thanks) and I’m more disturbed than ever. I’m thinking my search into the Catholic Chruch ends here and now because I just don’t believe any of this. It makes me so unbelievably sad for Jesus. I believe you have elevated his Mother to a place He would never approve of. For example read this quote:

which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : ‘Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.’"

This is saying that Mary is the go between between Jesus & me. Also, I this doesn’t make sense anyways because I just learned in RCIA class that there isn’t 3 Gods but one God. It isn’t God plus Jesus plus the Holy Spirit but just God which includes The Father, Son, HS so this quote doesn’t even make sense in that regard. Besides that, it sounds like a person must go through Mary to get to Jesus and that’s just not true.

Next quote that is so unbelievable:
Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.”

What? A creature having limitless power? That’s something that only God can claim. That statement alone makes it sound as if Mary is equal to God.

I have defended the Catholic position to my Protestant friends over & over again. No, they do not believe that Mary is equal with God, they only think she points the way to her Son. (But now I read that actually she stands in between???)
No, she doesn’t answer prayers… she’s only praying for me just like a person on earth might pray for me. (But now I read she actually has limitless powers?)

I’m not saying any of this to engage anyone in an argument. I know you all love Mary deeply and I do not mean to disrespect her in any way. Please know though that I love Jesus and it makes me so sad to think that his Mother is put on his level. I read on that site that she shared in the sufferings of Calvery. Say what? She might have been deeply saddened but it was Jesus up there alone on that cross! He was tortured, not her. He died for our sins, not her. And he is the only one who can anwer our prayers. He has limitless power. She does not.

This makes me very very sad.
 
francisca said:
This reformation is still going on and on and on and on… until all people bow their knees and said “no authority is higher than Jesus”, and no other ROCK but Jesus’s ROCK, and there will be one Shepherd and one Flock.

:amen:
 
Hi Carol Marie,
Besides that, it sounds like a person must go through Mary to get to Jesus and that’s just not true.
Carol Marie, no. You do not HAVE to. Some of us choose to go though Mary, and we have our reasons. But that is not the same as HAVING to go through Mary in order to get to God.
Next quote that is so unbelievable:
Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.”
Practically limitless does not mean limitless. Her powers may seem practically limitless to us, but that would only be because we have really no concept of God’s power, we have no real base of reference to omnipotence. Logic tells me that practically limitless power is a limited power.
No, she doesn’t answer prayers… she’s only praying for me just like a person on earth might pray for me.
Not quite. I doubt any other creature is her equal in past, present and future combined. You truly diminish the power of her prayer when you compare it to any other living creature.
 
Carol,

I’m sorry my link was not helpful. I still feel it is the truth. If you noticed you mischaracterized what was stated in the link. Practically limitless is infinitely less than limitless. Mary is a created creature she is not worshipped. No one implies differently and explicitly Catholics state she is a created creature, not to be worshipped which for a Catholic would be a MORTAL sin.

Mary does not stand between us and Jesus; she points the way. By God’s will she bestows graces upon all mankind because God ordered it so and all glory and honor is His, but He wills to share his blessings on all of us and on His Mother, giving her a special role in salvation. All free will creatures have a role in salvation–to love one another, but this does not add or diminish God’s glory.

There is no blocking mediator between us and Jesus. I pray to Jesus all the time “Jesus have mercy on me, a sinner” She intercedes for us all, though. Like you do when you pray for everyone’s salvation.

Deeply saddened by seeing her Son and Saviour and God on the cross is a poor description. Mary knew why her Son died and new since the annunciation Who He was. That gives her a unique role in history at the foot of the cross.

I hope I didn’t make this worse, but I have to speak the truth as I have been convicted, just like you. Somoen correct me if my theology is wrong. I am no expert I just believe.

God bless us both. 🙂
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
Carol,

I’m sorry my link was not helpful. I still feel it is the truth. If you noticed you mischaracterized what was stated in the link. Practically limitless is infinitely less than limitless. Mary is a created creature she is not worshipped. No one implies differently and explicitly Catholics state she is a created creature, not to be worshipped which for a Catholic would be a MORTAL sin.

Mary does not stand between us and Jesus; she points the way. By God’s will she bestows graces upon all mankind because God ordered it so and all glory and honor is His, but He wills to share his blessings on all of us and on His Mother, giving her a special role in salvation. All free will creatures have a role in salvation–to love one another, but this does not add or diminish God’s glory.

There is no blocking mediator between us and Jesus. I pray to Jesus all the time “Jesus have mercy on me, a sinner” She intercedes for us all, though. Like you do when you pray for everyone’s salvation.

Deeply saddened by seeing her Son and Saviour and God on the cross is a poor description. Mary knew why her Son died and new since the annunciation Who He was. That gives her a unique role in history at the foot of the cross.

I hope I didn’t make this worse, but I have to speak the truth as I have been convicted, just like you. Somoen correct me if my theology is wrong. I am no expert I just believe.

God bless us both. 🙂
Michael,

I admire your humility and warmth. Your second paragraph is foreign to my intellect, though. I have never seen this stated outside of catholic church tradition. The Bible does not speak of it. On the surface (by what you said above) it seems that God has given her “power” to bestow graces on mankind, which seems preposterous to me. God has given all power and authority to Christ alone.

Blessings…
 
ahimsaman72 said:
Your second paragraph is foreign to my intellect, though. I have never seen this stated outside of catholic church tradition. The Bible does not speak of it. On the surface (by what you said above) it seems that God has given her “power” to bestow graces on mankind, which seems preposterous to me. God has given all power and authority to Christ alone.QUOTE]
Not so. The Bible also speaks of Jesus giving her to the human race. She is your mother as much as mine. What mother has no authority over her little children? What mother does not feed her little children? What mother does not look out for the safety of her little children? What mother does not get all that she can for her little children? If an earthly mother is capable of all these, why would the Mother Jesus has given us do any less?
 
MichaelTDoyle said:
I’m sorry my link was not helpful. I still feel it is the truth.
…I hope I didn’t make this worse, but I have to speak the truth as I have been convicted, just like you. Somoen correct me if my theology is wrong. I am no expert I just believe.
No Michael, you cannot make it “worse”. That is a fallacy and that is a misguided stance adapted by those who want to bring everybody under one fold. The truth has to be told. We cannot placate the seeker with false assurances. It would be dishonest and manipulative. Besides, the insufficiently converted do great harm once they are within. They are generally better versed and have given more thought to their faith than the average cradle Catholic. A lot of us take our faith for granted and cease to learn after Confirmation. Besides the truth is always the best, no, it is the only way! You have done nothing wrong and please do not regret posting the site.
 
I see a problem in that Mary lived far beyond the death of Jesus and the advent of the New Covenant.

God bestowed his grace upon many people during this time period. I do not think that Mary was present at every baptism.
 
Shibboleth said:
I see a problem in that Mary lived far beyond the death of Jesus and the advent of the New Covenant.

God bestowed his grace upon many people during this time period. I do not think that Mary was present at every baptism.

I fail to see the logic… What do you mean?
 
How could she be the distributor of Grace whil she is still alive?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding.
 
She is the Ark upon which the New Covenant is given to us and she is the Gate by which no other shall enter and for this I would say that she has played a part in bestowing Grace upon us and our salvation.

I have no problem with the adoration of Mary to an extent just as I have no problem with the adoration of Bob Villa to an extent. I do think there is a line that one should not cross. For the most part I do not think that Catholics cross that line. Some of the people in South America in my estimation might but I do not know their heart so I cannot make such a claim.

In the end though she was a human and died a human.
 
Sarah Jane:
We don’t adore Mary!
You will have to forgive my shibboleths at times as I do not know the correct vernacular that the Catholic Church utilizes in certain matters.

What is the correct word? Venerate, Acknowledge, Honor

I adore Mary. In the respect that I am fond of her.
 
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Shibboleth:
You will have to forgive my shibboleths at times as I do not know the correct vernacular that the Catholic Church utilizes in certain matters.

What is the correct word? Venerate, Acknowledge, Honor

I adore Mary. In the respect that I am fond of her.
We only adore God, but we venerate Mary.
 
O.K. I will be more careful in the future. For my obove post please insert venerate. I am sure that I will get more upset comments on the issue.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Not so. The Bible also speaks of Jesus giving her to the human race. She is your mother as much as mine. What mother has no authority over her little children? What mother does not feed her little children? What mother does not look out for the safety of her little children? What mother does not get all that she can for her little children? If an earthly mother is capable of all these, why would the Mother Jesus has given us do any less?
Please refer me to where this is located in the Bible. If you are referring to John 19:26 when Christ was crucified and said to John, “Behold, your mother” and to Mary, “Behold, your son” I would say that this is a weak “proof text”. The text is clear as to what Jesus meant. Obviously, He was going to heaven and away from His mother. Since (as catholic teaching claims) he didn’t have any brothers and sisters to physically take care of her it seems only logical that He would ask the “disciple whom Jesus loved” to take care of his precious mother. Isn’t that what the text is saying?
 
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ahimsaman72:
Please refer me to where this is located in the Bible. If you are referring to John 19:26 when Christ was crucified and said to John, “Behold, your mother” and to Mary, “Behold, your son” I would say that this is a weak “proof text”. The text is clear as to what Jesus meant. Obviously, He was going to heaven and away from His mother. Since (as catholic teaching claims) he didn’t have any brothers and sisters to physically take care of her it seems only logical that He would ask the “disciple whom Jesus loved” to take care of his precious mother. Isn’t that what the text is saying?
Read this :

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/m.html
 
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