What should Luther have done?

[ahimsaman72]

Sarah Jane:

Read this :

star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/m.html

Sarah,
That’s fine that you post links, but I would rather hear from you. If you read post# 88 again, I see no relation to what was said and this article here and to my response to tru devotion.
Peace…

 

[Sarah_Jane]

ahimsaman72:

Sarah,
That’s fine that you post links, but I would rather hear from you. If you read post# 88 again, I see no relation to what was said and this article here and to my response to tru devotion.
Peace…

This link explains the spiritual motherhood of Mary.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Shibboleth:

O.K. I will be more careful in the future. For my obove post please insert venerate. I am sure that I will get more upset comments on the issue.

It’s funny. The words are difficult, but the reality is not. I think the reality is easy because Mary gently guides us to her son, never to herself. When I pray to Mary it is adoration for Jesus I feel with the love of His mother.

I am very grateful for the Rosary. I am not a great pray-er, but the Rosary I get guided along and encouraged. Mary pointing to her son and bestowing His graces in accordance with the will of God, reflecting Her divine Son’s love and care and grace is not a problem in prayer, but explaining it always seems to run into difficulties.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

ahimsaman72:

Michael,
God has given all power and authority to Christ alone.

Blessings…

This is not right I think. Jesus does have all authority and all power but God shares without diminishing His perfection. I could not breathe or exist without God’s permissive will. God empowers us to do good deeds. He empowers us and we use this power (i hope) to do good.

God wants us to participate in His reality. He has given us power to do so. He gave the apostles power too.

There is a community of Saints and good Christians here on Earth that pray for us and try to help us. God gave them the power to pray. I think God wants us all pulling together with love to worship Him alone freely and together.

Peace

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

ahimsaman72:

Please refer me to where this is located in the Bible. If you are referring to John 19:26 when Christ was crucified and said to John, “Behold, your mother” and to Mary, “Behold, your son” I would say that this is a weak “proof text”. The text is clear as to what Jesus meant. Obviously, He was going to heaven and away from His mother. Since (as catholic teaching claims) he didn’t have any brothers and sisters to physically take care of her it seems only logical that He would ask the “disciple whom Jesus loved” to take care of his precious mother. Isn’t that what the text is saying?

Think about the context. Where and when was Christ saying this? God does not need to set up care for his mother. He is God. Jesus had a reason of love for everything he said and at this time everything he says I think was meant for all humanity.

It is finished
I thirst
Behold, your mother
Psalm 22

Christ’s words from the Cross are the mightiest statements from the Bible I can think of. These are not merely teachings, but definitions of reality by God Himself.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MichaelTDoyle:

Think about the context. Where and when was Christ saying this? God does not need to set up care for his mother. He is God. Jesus had a reason of love for everything he said and at this time everything he says I think was meant for all humanity.

It is finished
I thirst
Behold, your mother
Psalm 22

Christ’s words from the Cross are the mightiest statements from the Bible I can think of. These are not merely teachings, but definitions of reality by God Himself.

Actually, I was thinking about the context. I didn’t seek to take out of it what wasn’t there. He was saying it while dying on the cross at Golgotha. He was leaving earth. Your point is? I could compare it to if I knew I was dying and my mother was alone, I would want my best friend to “watch out for her”.

Wow, “mightiest statements from the Bible” is pretty intense. I would go with “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son” for a mighty statement. But then, that’s just me.

 

[ahimsaman72]

MichaelTDoyle:

This is not right I think. Jesus does have all authority and all power but God shares without diminishing His perfection. I could not breathe or exist without God’s permissive will. God empowers us to do good deeds. He empowers us and we use this power (i hope) to do good.

God wants us to participate in His reality. He has given us power to do so. He gave the apostles power too.

There is a community of Saints and good Christians here on Earth that pray for us and try to help us. God gave them the power to pray. I think God wants us all pulling together with love to worship Him alone freely and together.

Peace

I have problems with this “sharing” of authority and power. God is absolutely sovereign. Everything else I can live with.
I think we should consider it with a limited scope. If you go far with this idea it leads to false doctrines like “Co-Redemptrix”. But really, this is all getting far away from the topic, so I will leave our discussion of this issue at that. Maybe we can pick it up on another thread.
Peace…

 

[corkybob]

**It is my understanding that most Catholics agree that when Martin Luther broke away, the Church was indeed a mess. I’ve heard that the Pope was terrible, indulgences were being sold and the sinful clergy that Luther had such a problem with were truly awful. I’ve also been taught (granted, by the Lutheran church) that Luther didn’t want to break away, he wanted to bring abut reform within the Church but that the Pope was so corrupt he booted him out (and then tried to have him murdered.) So here’s my question: What should Luther have done differently? Should he have just kept quiet when he was told to do so??? **

He should of done what Mother Teresa said that we should do. She stated that we are not called to be perfect. We are called to be faithful. In other words Luther should have continued to object, not revolt.

Pax
John

 

[tru_dvotion]

Shibboleth:

How could she be the distributor of Grace while she is still alive?

While she was alive she remained within the confines of nature, space and time. Even Jesus had to subject himself to the restrictions of the physical world. So I suppose she did what any good earthly mother would do, pray for her children. She could not have been the distributor of God’s gifts in her earthly existence. Remember, even Jesus made references to not having ascended to the Father yet. I am NOT making a comparison; all I do is reinforce the confines of nature.

The rest of your posts are quite scandalous. Please think before you make statements. Words are very powerful and have a creative element. It sometimes shows our hidden side, and in this case carelessness became an unintended blasphemy.

 

[tru_dvotion]

ahimsaman 72:

Please refer me to where this is located in the Bible. If you are referring to John 19:26 when Christ was crucified and said to John, “Behold, your mother” and to Mary, “Behold, your son” I would say that this is a weak “proof text”. The text is clear as to what Jesus meant. Obviously, He was going to heaven and away from His mother. Since (as catholic teaching claims) he didn’t have any brothers and sisters to physically take care of her it seems only logical that He would ask the “disciple whom Jesus loved” to take care of his precious mother. Isn’t that what the text is saying?

I have not looked at the link, I do not need any convincing. I am her slave, remember?

But no, yours is the fundamentalist explanation.

This is what we believe:

First of all, Mary had a family. Jewish custom would have sent her under the roof of one of her relatives, and not to one of the disciples. Handing her to John was highly irregular and contrary to the expectations of the time and the culture. Jesus addressed her as woman and not *mother. *(He did the same thing at the wedding at Cana) In both instances, in fact every single time Jesus addresses Mary in Scriptures with a formal address. Why is that? Was it to show that he had no human attachment or tenderness for her? On the contrary, Jesus must have been the most tender and most considerate of sons. But I do not think that family stuff would have been written down and preserved for Sacred Scriptures. Everything in there has a purpose, and the purpose is beyond the familiar or to simply recall human attachments. Every time Jesus speaks to his mother on the pages of the Bible, there is a message for all people for all time. It is never for the sake to tell an anecdote. As big as it is, the one thing you cannot accuse the Bible of is verbal superfluous-ness. No ahisaman, the text says Jesus give his mother to mankind and mankind to his mother. John was the beloved disciple, but that only tells me how Jesus regards all of mankind, with the exact same tenderness he had for the one disciple, who must have loved him the most.

 

[Shibboleth]

tru_dvotion:

It sometimes shows our hidden side,

I am curious what you are witnessing to in this statement.

 

[ahimsaman72]

tru_dvotion:

I have not looked at the link, I do not need any convincing. I am her slave, remember?

But no, yours is the fundamentalist explanation.

My explanation is a Biblical explanation

This is what we believe:

First of all, Mary had a family. Jewish custom would have sent her under the roof of one of her relatives, and not to one of the disciples. Handing her to John was highly irregular and contrary to the expectations of the time and the culture. Jesus addressed her as woman and not *mother. *(He did the same thing at the wedding at Cana) In both instances, in fact every single time Jesus addresses Mary in Scriptures with a formal address. Why is that? Was it to show that he had no human attachment or tenderness for her? On the contrary, Jesus must have been the most tender and most considerate of sons. But I do not think that family stuff would have been written down and preserved for Sacred Scriptures. Everything in there has a purpose, and the purpose is beyond the familiar or to simply recall human attachments. Every time Jesus speaks to his mother on the pages of the Bible, there is a message for all people for all time. It is never for the sake to tell an anecdote. As big as it is, the one thing you cannot accuse the Bible of is verbal superfluous-ness. No ahisaman, the text says Jesus give his mother to mankind and mankind to his mother. John was the beloved disciple, but that only tells me how Jesus regards all of mankind, with the exact same tenderness he had for the one disciple, who must have loved him the most.

You do not THINK that family stuff would have been written down? Odd.

We must be using different religious texts to compare. My Bible text does not say, “Jesus give his mother to mankind and mankind to his mother”. It says exactly what I quoted to you.
You read into the text what you believe.

And protestants are accused of misapplying Scripture? Please…

 

[ahimsaman72]

tru_dvotion:

While she was alive she remained within the confines of nature, space and time. Even Jesus had to subject himself to the restrictions of the physical world. So I suppose she did what any good earthly mother would do, pray for her children. She could not have been the distributor of God’s gifts in her earthly existence. Remember, even Jesus made references to not having ascended to the Father yet. I am NOT making a comparison; all I do is reinforce the confines of nature.

The rest of your posts are quite scandalous. Please think before you make statements. Words are very powerful and have a creative element. It sometimes shows our hidden side, and in this case carelessness became an unintended blasphemy.

I know this wasn’t intended toward me, but I’m curious what the “unintended blasphemy” is. Maybe I’ve said it before? Pray tell.

 

[RNRobert]

Shibboleth:

I love the statement,

I would never join an organization that would have me as its member.

This reminds me of a joke I heard once:

A man told his friend, “I don’t want to be a Christian, there’s too many hypocrites in the church.” His friend replied, “That’s okay- we always have room for one more!”

 

[tru_dvotion]

I know this wasn’t intended toward me, but I’m curious what the “unintended blasphemy” is. Maybe I’ve said it before? Pray tell.

The person I responded to stated he adored Mary. *Adoration *of a created being is a sin against the first commandment. I called it unintended, because no Catholic in his right mind would ever think to elevate our Holy Mother to the place that is rightfully belongs to God and to God alone.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

ahimsaman72:

I have problems with this “sharing” of authority and power. God is absolutely sovereign. Everything else I can live with.
I think we should consider it with a limited scope. If you go far with this idea it leads to false doctrines like “Co-Redemptrix”. But really, this is all getting far away from the topic, so I will leave our discussion of this issue at that. Maybe we can pick it up on another thread.
Peace…

My statement was not meant to imply God was not absolutely sovereign, he is. The sharing does not imply a diminishing of God’s power. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Co-redemptrix.
peace

“Corredemptrix”

Mary’s cooperation in the work of redemption is sometimes expressed by giving her the title “Corredemptrix.” The Popes have used this title, but more rarely and in documents of lesser weight, because it easily admits of misunderstanding. The first extant use of the title is in a fourtheenth century liturgical book from Salzburg. The prefix “co-” signifies that Mary does not contribute independently to the redemption, but only as associated with her divine Son.

Mary

 

[carol_marie]

Please children! Stop bickering! Opps. sorry… it’s just that I often think that people who agrue and pick on each other on these forums remind me of my kids. I really want to understand Mary in view of the Catholic Church. As I said in a previous post, some of those quotes really bother me. And I agree, please tell the truth because I don’t want to be fooled into thinking that Mary is just a follower of Christ (like us all, although MUCH better at it) if you believe that she is so much more. I have printed out the 23 page article on Mary that I believe Sarah suggested. (thank you) In the meantime, could we please just stick to the topic (which, by the way I am so over Luther - this Mary thing is all I’ve thought about since I read the co-redemptrix thing - so maybe a new thread should be started anyhow) But at any rate, no more bickering, please. (Or I’ll send you to your rooms! Can you tell I have 4 kids??!)

 

[tru_dvotion]

My explanation is a Biblical explanation
You do not THINK that family stuff would have been written down? Odd.

We must be using different religious texts to compare. My Bible text does not say, “Jesus give his mother to mankind and mankind to his mother”. It says exactly what I quoted to you.
You read into the text what you believe.

And protestants are accused of misapplying Scripture? Please…

Different text you say? Just one question, how do Protestants apply this: When your hand sins, cut it off. I do not see too many of you people with missing limbs. So than you must not be applying this literally either. And please don’t say this was under the old law and Jesus changed all that. This one refers to the new law, this is in the Beatitudes. Any family thing that would have been written down had a meaning for all ages. It would have to refer to or to teach something beyond the anecdotal.

 

[tru_dvotion]

carol marie:

…this Mary thing is all I’ve thought about since I read the co-redemptrix thing - so maybe a new thread should be started anyhow) But at any rate, no more bickering, please. (Or I’ll send you to your rooms! Can you tell I have 4 kids??!)

hehehe. Yes maam! Do start a new thread. I will be coming along! I am glad to see you are still around Carol Marie.

 

[ahimsaman72]

carol marie:

Please children! Stop bickering! Opps. sorry… it’s just that I often think that people who agrue and pick on each other on these forums remind me of my kids. I really want to understand Mary in view of the Catholic Church. As I said in a previous post, some of those quotes really bother me. And I agree, please tell the truth because I don’t want to be fooled into thinking that Mary is just a follower of Christ (like us all, although MUCH better at it) if you believe that she is so much more. I have printed out the 23 page article on Mary that I believe Sarah suggested. (thank you) In the meantime, could we please just stick to the topic (which, by the way I am so over Luther - this Mary thing is all I’ve thought about since I read the co-redemptrix thing - so maybe a new thread should be started anyhow) But at any rate, no more bickering, please. (Or I’ll send you to your rooms! Can you tell I have 4 kids??!)

Sorry Carol Marie . I’ll try to stop. I have three kids and I send mine to their rooms all the time! Carol Marie, I advise you to look into the issue from both sides - not just from one. If you really want the truth you have to look at the arguments from both sides and get the whole story, kinda like in judicial court. You’re on the jury. Weigh the evidence, either way. I believe God will hold us responsible not only for our faithfulness to Him but whether or not we strived to know the truth and acted on that truth. God bless you…