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ahimsaman72
Guest
Carol Marie, we hereby elect you to start this new thread on Mary!! How’s that for democracy?hehehe. Yes maam! Do start a new thread. I will be coming along! I am glad to see you are still around Carol Marie.
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Just what I said. I know you did not mean it when you said you adored Mary. I also identified the hidden side: carelessness of word usage. In apologetics, this can have fatal consequences and scandalize others. For instance we are not a group of teenage girls talking about a new bag or a pair of shoes: “oh, I just adore this pair” would one say to another. What she would mean she really likes the pair until something newer (and better) shows up in the stores. We cannot slack off in apologetics, we cannot use colloquial expressions, because they distort what we mean and mislead the readers especially those who are seeking answers. I was not intending to be hard on you, and if your feelings are hurt, please forgive me. But I did not assume for one moment that you meant the words “I adore Mary”, I have assumed you made a careless comment that is all.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
carol marie:
Made me smile
thanks
Suggestion: Don’t get stuck on the terminology. Focus on the meaning. The terminology the Church uses for these titles can be confusing.
'nother thought:
Mary and her relationship with us and her Son and the Father has nothing to do with power. Her humility and her love and her obedience and her heart makes her, I believe, and her prayers very pleasing to God and her suffering at the foot of the cross of her divine Son so meritorious.
peace
/me checks to make sure I finished all my broccoli
Made me smile
thanks
Suggestion: Don’t get stuck on the terminology. Focus on the meaning. The terminology the Church uses for these titles can be confusing.
'nother thought:
Mary and her relationship with us and her Son and the Father has nothing to do with power. Her humility and her love and her obedience and her heart makes her, I believe, and her prayers very pleasing to God and her suffering at the foot of the cross of her divine Son so meritorious.
peace
/me checks to make sure I finished all my broccoli
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Pax
Guest
After reading the above dialogue concerning the Blessed Virgin, I just have to shake my head. Catholics get frustrated when they explain something to non-Catholics only to hear the same tired accusations repeated once again. There are many threads on these boards that discuss the Church’s Marion teachings and I would recommend them.
Non-Catholics need to understand that they cannot take a teaching out of context any more than we can take scripture verses out of context. When we remove the context we destroy the meaning. It has been suggested that the term “co-redemptrix” puts Mary on par with Jesus and is idolatry. It has also been suggested that the term should not be used if we aren’t putting Mary on a par with Jesus. That is utter nonsense. In our everyday language we use the term “copilot,” and we do not mean that the person in the second seat of an aircraft is equal to the pilot. In fact, if you know anything about the airlines, you would know that there is a significant difference between the two. Examples could be multiplied but you get the idea.
As Catholics we do not demand that Protestants change their definitions/use of words. When Protestants have an “altar call” we don’t demand that they not use the term even though they don’t have an altar in their church building. Instead, as Protestants and Catholics we need to truly understand one another’s terminology, and we need to understand it in the context in which it used.
Now hear this! Catholics do not “worship” Mary in any way shape or form that our accusers suggest. Catholics do not place Mary in any type of equivalency with Jesus, nor does the term “co-redemptrix” mean what you might think it means or what you might want it to mean. It means what Catholics tell you it means. Ask a Catholic about Jesus. A Catholic will tell you that only Jesus died for our sins. A Catholic will tell you that it is only by the blood of Jesus Christ that we are saved. No Catholic believes that the blood of any martyred saint or Mary’s blood provides our salvation. Only Jesus, the son of God, died on the cross for our salvation and every Catholic believes that. I hope that clarifies this issue!
If you believe that our teachings on Mary make her equal to God then you have a very small vision of God, and an extremely limited understanding of the extraordinary character of the Mass and the worship we render to God. If you read Catholic prayers and spirituality pertaining to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit and compare them with those on Mary you see a huge difference. Unprepared Protestants that read Ligouri’s descriptions and praises of Mary are usually offended by the flowery language and praise. But if they read what Ligouri says about the Lord they would no longer be offended because they would see how his words about Mary pale in comparison. This is the way it is with all Catholic teachings, prayer, and worship. While statements about Mary are heavenly and beautiful, they merely reflect God’s workmanship within her. God is divine and Mary is not. God is the author and Mary is his finest work among his creatures. This is appropriate, if not necessary, because Mary bore God’s divine son in her womb.
I am constantly amazed at the great love my non-Catholic brothers and sisters have for Jesus and I praise them for it. I am, however, frequently disappointed, at how small their vision can sometimes be when it comes to God and His wondrous deeds. Our vision of creation and the universe, and our vision of God’s plan for salvation should not be limited. God’s loving power has generated every good thing and every gift to man. Whenever we fully appreciate the wonders of God’s creation we get a greater appreciation for the unfathomable power and mystery of God, Himself. The splendor of Mary is like the light of the moon, but it is only a small reflection of the light of God that both creates and illuminates.
Non-Catholics need to understand that they cannot take a teaching out of context any more than we can take scripture verses out of context. When we remove the context we destroy the meaning. It has been suggested that the term “co-redemptrix” puts Mary on par with Jesus and is idolatry. It has also been suggested that the term should not be used if we aren’t putting Mary on a par with Jesus. That is utter nonsense. In our everyday language we use the term “copilot,” and we do not mean that the person in the second seat of an aircraft is equal to the pilot. In fact, if you know anything about the airlines, you would know that there is a significant difference between the two. Examples could be multiplied but you get the idea.
As Catholics we do not demand that Protestants change their definitions/use of words. When Protestants have an “altar call” we don’t demand that they not use the term even though they don’t have an altar in their church building. Instead, as Protestants and Catholics we need to truly understand one another’s terminology, and we need to understand it in the context in which it used.
Now hear this! Catholics do not “worship” Mary in any way shape or form that our accusers suggest. Catholics do not place Mary in any type of equivalency with Jesus, nor does the term “co-redemptrix” mean what you might think it means or what you might want it to mean. It means what Catholics tell you it means. Ask a Catholic about Jesus. A Catholic will tell you that only Jesus died for our sins. A Catholic will tell you that it is only by the blood of Jesus Christ that we are saved. No Catholic believes that the blood of any martyred saint or Mary’s blood provides our salvation. Only Jesus, the son of God, died on the cross for our salvation and every Catholic believes that. I hope that clarifies this issue!
If you believe that our teachings on Mary make her equal to God then you have a very small vision of God, and an extremely limited understanding of the extraordinary character of the Mass and the worship we render to God. If you read Catholic prayers and spirituality pertaining to Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit and compare them with those on Mary you see a huge difference. Unprepared Protestants that read Ligouri’s descriptions and praises of Mary are usually offended by the flowery language and praise. But if they read what Ligouri says about the Lord they would no longer be offended because they would see how his words about Mary pale in comparison. This is the way it is with all Catholic teachings, prayer, and worship. While statements about Mary are heavenly and beautiful, they merely reflect God’s workmanship within her. God is divine and Mary is not. God is the author and Mary is his finest work among his creatures. This is appropriate, if not necessary, because Mary bore God’s divine son in her womb.
I am constantly amazed at the great love my non-Catholic brothers and sisters have for Jesus and I praise them for it. I am, however, frequently disappointed, at how small their vision can sometimes be when it comes to God and His wondrous deeds. Our vision of creation and the universe, and our vision of God’s plan for salvation should not be limited. God’s loving power has generated every good thing and every gift to man. Whenever we fully appreciate the wonders of God’s creation we get a greater appreciation for the unfathomable power and mystery of God, Himself. The splendor of Mary is like the light of the moon, but it is only a small reflection of the light of God that both creates and illuminates.
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gsaccone
Guest
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Yes I know. I was short of a zero. Actually it is around 34 thousand if I remember correctly. Thanks for the correction.
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gsaccone
Guest
Here here! I agree. In fact it may have been a previous post I submitted which is as follows:Please don’t judge the Catholic Church by the behavior of some of it’s members. Remember, the Church is not so much a hotel for saints as it is a hospital for sinners, and some of us have farther to go before we are “cured.” As someone said in a post on another thread,you should judge an organization on its best members, not it’s worst.
“A Master chef creates the perfect meal and leaves the recipe. Now 10 other chefs all use his recipe to make a meal but some follow it only vaguely while others more exactly. When all the meals are prepared, which one are you going to say “this tastes like the Master chef’s meal”? The one who followed it most perfectly. So, if we are going to look at members of a community to evaluate that communities belief system (keeping in mind it is not for us to judge), then it would be by the SAINTS that we consider a religion, not by the sinners!”
God Bless,
Greg
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tru_dvotion
Guest
Good post Pax!
What I find so amazing, how quickly well educated and smart people can become so simple minded when they are discussing Mary. It is almost as if the intelligence and the knowledge they otherwise have suddenly disappears and they end up reasoning in the most infantile way. You have to spell everything out and sometimes they still don’t get it. But I do not think they are simple minded at all. I think when it comes to Mary, Satan clouds the mind of ordinarily smart people and they get a mental paralysis. She is most hated and also most feared by the adversary and the last thing he wants is to allow good Christian people to realize her divine maternity. When they realize who she is to them, they can become quite dangerous as far as Satan is concerned. So don’t be hard on would be converts, when it comes to Mary, logic, knowledge and natural born intelligence are generally impaired.
What I find so amazing, how quickly well educated and smart people can become so simple minded when they are discussing Mary. It is almost as if the intelligence and the knowledge they otherwise have suddenly disappears and they end up reasoning in the most infantile way. You have to spell everything out and sometimes they still don’t get it. But I do not think they are simple minded at all. I think when it comes to Mary, Satan clouds the mind of ordinarily smart people and they get a mental paralysis. She is most hated and also most feared by the adversary and the last thing he wants is to allow good Christian people to realize her divine maternity. When they realize who she is to them, they can become quite dangerous as far as Satan is concerned. So don’t be hard on would be converts, when it comes to Mary, logic, knowledge and natural born intelligence are generally impaired.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
Go! Pax! Yay!!! Great post! Straight to the point, uncompromising and charitable! Yay!!! heh, I liked Pax’s post
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carol_marie
Guest
Yes I agree, well said Pax, thank you. I’m sure it must get frustrating hearing the same tired old arguments against the Catholic Church. I guess the Mary thing touches a raw nerve (for me anyhow) because when friends have criticized my interest in the Catholic Church they always seem to end up at Mary. “Catholics worship Mary and more attention is paid to her than to God. They make her the 4th part of the trinity!” I’ve said over & over, “No No No, not true! I promise!” And then I turn around and hear stuff like Co-Redemtrix and Mary handing out graces and going through Mary to get to Jesus. Yikes! I start thinking OMIGOODNESS they were right! These people do care more about Mary than Jesus! And an alarm goes off in my head and I start thinking why am I even THINKING about the Catholic Church??? Anyhow, it becomes a slippery slope and I start to panic that I’ve made a huge mistake. That’s why Mary freaks me out. The mere mention of her hits some fundamentalist planted trigger. I pray pray pray that I’m able to someday view her as my Mother. I think that must be such a wonderful comforting thing. I’m just not there yet. God Bless. CM
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mark_a
Guest
Sarah Jane:
Back to Luther-
Luther should have known his reforms would be hijacked by the local “royalty”. He was obviously an extremely bright man. But the power trip is too much temptation for almost any man to resist.
Awsome link.
Back to Luther-
Luther should have known his reforms would be hijacked by the local “royalty”. He was obviously an extremely bright man. But the power trip is too much temptation for almost any man to resist.
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mtr01
Guest
carol marie:
Just to add a little to all that’s been said, I often find it a good idea to see what the Church Fathers thought about an issue. Many times it helps bring things into perspective. For example, Irenaeus, writing circa 180 AD in Against Heresies (Bk 3, Ch. 22) had this to say about the whole co-redemptrix issue:
I think this quote cuts right to the heart of all Catholic thinking on Mary. And seen in this light, I don’t know how anyone could be threatened, or even offended by this teaching.
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mtr01
Guest
mark a:
Oops! Sorry for going off-topic, yet again
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Pax
Guest
mtr01,
Great post quoting Irenaeus
Great post quoting Irenaeus
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gsaccone
Guest
Yes, well done to both Pax and mtr01!mtr01,
Great post quoting Irenaeus
:yup: :clapping: :tiphat:
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RNRobert
Guest
carol marie:
If you go to a Catholic Mass, you will find out for yourself that Mary is not worshipped. When you enter a Catholic Church, you will find a crucifix right over the altar. When the priest finishes reading the Gospel, the congregation recites “Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ.” Also, the heart of Catholic worship is the body and blood of Jesus made present in the Eucharist. As a matter of fact, except for the confession in the beginning (where we ask Mary and the Saints, and our fellow congregants to pray for us), and the reciting of the creed, most of the tme you do not even hear Mary’s name mentioned.
I was a fundamentalist Protestant and had the same qualms you did. A couple months ago, I started a thread on why we Catholics consider it important to honor Mary and answering some objections. You can click here to look at it. I hope it helps- if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
Carol Marie,
If you go to a Catholic Mass, you will find out for yourself that Mary is not worshipped. When you enter a Catholic Church, you will find a crucifix right over the altar. When the priest finishes reading the Gospel, the congregation recites “Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ.” Also, the heart of Catholic worship is the body and blood of Jesus made present in the Eucharist. As a matter of fact, except for the confession in the beginning (where we ask Mary and the Saints, and our fellow congregants to pray for us), and the reciting of the creed, most of the tme you do not even hear Mary’s name mentioned.
I was a fundamentalist Protestant and had the same qualms you did. A couple months ago, I started a thread on why we Catholics consider it important to honor Mary and answering some objections. You can click here to look at it. I hope it helps- if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
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RNRobert
Guest
YES!
Yours was the post I had in mind- I just couldn’t remember who wrote it or where.
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Richard_Lamb
Guest
carol marie said:
Gone to confetion and accepted his absolution. In truth this is what prompted his early problems, he never felt truly clean after confetion (that condition is called scrupulocity). Luther was an Agustinian Monk, theywere and are scripture scholars and he should have know that in the end the church always cleanses herself from within. If the human problems within the church were a cause for breaking away then St. Francis would have started the reformation 500-600 years before.
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mark_a
Guest
Yep. The Gloria and the creeds are good “nutshell” representations of the Church.
Just a side note: One church I attend does not have an crucifix over the alter. There is one in the narthex (sp?) and there is one carried in at the beginning of Mass.
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Maccabees
Guest
I think some of us are being a little to easy on the church here. It was corrupt and Luther was right in his original protest. Nailing concerns of the faith on the church door was a catholic tradition not a Lutheran one. The majority of luterh’s gripes about the church were vlaid his 95 thesis haved been mostly answered psotively in his favor a little at a time first at Trent and some more at Vatican 2.
Like I said the problem was Luther what began at an attempt to reform the church ended with him remaking the church in his image he started to form dogma that agreed with him and disagreed with the 1500 years of prior tradition. He was a man of many many flaws but his contempt for the midevil popes and their love of the world and money was a valid one also protesting the Bishop Tetzel and his selling of indulgences was legitamate. This was classic example of the Pharisees using the Korban rule which was not authentic Mosaic tradition but a made up money scheme made up by the Pharisees. The pharisees had authentic tradition from Moses but instead taught their own traditions of Men. THis was the case of many bishops of the corrupt midevil church They had authentic apostolic tradition but replaced it with their own traditions of men.
Many honorable Catholics such as Saint Thomas Moore acknowledged the sorry state of the church and some of its clergy.
But Luther could have taken a page from Moore battling with dialogue instead of tearing Christendom into shatters. As with any Reformation it is started and finished from within such as Saint Ignatius of Loyola. Luther could have been such a man he started the Reform from within but choose a Revolution and Rebellion rather than Reformation. Alas Lutehr was human being a rather emotional one at that. And was not dealing with facts in a history book but rather flesh and blood that he battled with some who were not exactly deserving of the offices they held in the church. Luther’s failure was not observing the supernatural nature of the church rather than the ordinary nature he was observing of its sinful members. The gates of hell shall not prevail agianst the church. But it could have prevailed against Tetzel.
Like I said the problem was Luther what began at an attempt to reform the church ended with him remaking the church in his image he started to form dogma that agreed with him and disagreed with the 1500 years of prior tradition. He was a man of many many flaws but his contempt for the midevil popes and their love of the world and money was a valid one also protesting the Bishop Tetzel and his selling of indulgences was legitamate. This was classic example of the Pharisees using the Korban rule which was not authentic Mosaic tradition but a made up money scheme made up by the Pharisees. The pharisees had authentic tradition from Moses but instead taught their own traditions of Men. THis was the case of many bishops of the corrupt midevil church They had authentic apostolic tradition but replaced it with their own traditions of men.
Many honorable Catholics such as Saint Thomas Moore acknowledged the sorry state of the church and some of its clergy.
But Luther could have taken a page from Moore battling with dialogue instead of tearing Christendom into shatters. As with any Reformation it is started and finished from within such as Saint Ignatius of Loyola. Luther could have been such a man he started the Reform from within but choose a Revolution and Rebellion rather than Reformation. Alas Lutehr was human being a rather emotional one at that. And was not dealing with facts in a history book but rather flesh and blood that he battled with some who were not exactly deserving of the offices they held in the church. Luther’s failure was not observing the supernatural nature of the church rather than the ordinary nature he was observing of its sinful members. The gates of hell shall not prevail agianst the church. But it could have prevailed against Tetzel.
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