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Mongo
Guest
That is pretty true.
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dedo
Guest
Correct.
I think the Gottmans (psychotherapists) do a lot of work on the bidding process that is the basis of relationship formation. Most of their work is for romantic relationships which is the topic of this thread. But a lot of it probably applies to all social interactions including platonic relationships, working relationships, etc.
I think the way it works is one person makes a “bid”. The bid shows interest; however, the initial bid is often somewhat discreet or camouflaged. So if the bid is rejected then the bidder can pretend that there was no real bid. Then self esteem is preserved etc. Skill in bidding, recognizing bids, and responding to bids is highly correlated to marriage survival according to Gottman. Thus, it is a skill worth learning and I will probably spend some time on it, not for romantic relationships since I am married, but for all relationships.
So the main thing to improve on to avoid relationship failure is to improve skills in this area – bidding and responding to bids.
When, I was dating my wife, there was clarity in this process in that I never doubted that she wanted more interaction. It was generally just a small but consistent gesture, like a thank you note after a date etc.
In the platonic / internet arena, there is usually some sort of bid / response as well and it is important to be aware of it. For example, most people who bid a few times on a forum like this might just hope for some occasional response to a post to continue conversing. If that response is never there, or if the response is negative, then most people stop bidding and wait for the other to do something. In this arena, there is no romance involved, just intellectual exchange. Other arenas might involve potential working relationships etc.
If the process works (bid / response), then eventually someone drops the camouflage, takes a risk, and initiates a conversation that may or may not lead to relationship.
Good luck.
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Le_Cracquere
Guest
For one thing, there aren’t any reliable guides on what, precisely, constitutes “pursuing,” or that explain how it’s done. And unfortunately, not all men are born with an instinctual understanding of how to “pursue” someone, and not all of us effortlessly pick it up from peers by osmosis. For a few of us, it’s like playing a piano: it can be done … but no one simply falls into the habit of playing the piano.
If someone directed me to “pursue” someone or other, I’d be out of luck–one might as well order me to pick up a random instrument and play the St. Matthew’s Passion on it. So, you see, “stops” isn’t always the right word for the problem.
If someone directed me to “pursue” someone or other, I’d be out of luck–one might as well order me to pick up a random instrument and play the St. Matthew’s Passion on it. So, you see, “stops” isn’t always the right word for the problem.
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GreyWings
Guest
A history? Dude, you’re not going to find a woman who is exactly like the Blessed Virgin. No offense, but with that kind of thinking, I wouldn’t give you the time of day, and I’m considered a “looker”.The biggest things that would stop me from pursuing a woman were sexual promiscuity, smoking, drug use, and lavish spending. If the woman I was interested in was currently involved in or had a history of any those interests I would just not pursue her anymore. Not worth the risk.
The best men I’ve encountered have had learned experiences. The weirdest creeps were inexperienced with hidden habits. I’d pick the redeemed over the holier-than-thou. Because suffering and mistakes builds character. Romans 5.
I think what matters is where a faithful Catholic woman is NOW. Everyone’s made mistakes. Even saints. St. Ignatius, my friends. Anyone can become a saint. With where you are now, towards the future, is what matters.
OP: go for a guy who sees your worth. Stuck up men who think their past, absolved sins are somehow lesser than a woman’s is not worth the time. A man who is worth it will pursue you.
You do want to live a life in accordance with the Catholic faith. That includes making healthy decisions. And in doing these things, you’ll attract the kind of man you want, if it is His will.
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Polluted
Guest
Guys don’t chase girls in western society in 2015 because of shyness. It’s that simple. Fear of rejection and shyness, that and habitual masturbation by even your most rightous males are all the reasons why.
The average 21st century western female is a very different beast from back in the day. Not to mention most kids these days are steered away from any masculine qualities. Sorry to burst your bubble but it’s true. If you ever want to find yourself a quality man you need to be on the offense as well…because the vast bulk of men today are actually children, afraid to make a move, and hoping that a female is gonna come up to them and throw themselves at them doing all the courting.
The average 21st century western female is a very different beast from back in the day. Not to mention most kids these days are steered away from any masculine qualities. Sorry to burst your bubble but it’s true. If you ever want to find yourself a quality man you need to be on the offense as well…because the vast bulk of men today are actually children, afraid to make a move, and hoping that a female is gonna come up to them and throw themselves at them doing all the courting.
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Polluted
Guest
This post is solid gold.
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Norseman82
Guest
That’s uncalled for. A person may simply find you incompatible, so why the nasty vitriol?
Also, as I stated before, I believe the OP is married, based on other posts/threads she has made/commented in.
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TK421
Guest
Unattractive qualities:Just trying to pick the brain of the male members. If you feel that you are called to the vocation of marriage and are around single, faithful, Catholic women through various activities, what stops you from pursuing one of them? As a woman, I can think of some reasons but I think my perspective is probably wrong (since I am not a man).
So men, tell me what prevents a man from pursuing a woman for a deeper friendship or courtship? Thanks!
Low self-esteem
Constantly apologizing / inordinate polity
Doesn’t like to try new things
Doesn’t like children
Low motivation / desire for lifelong self-improvement
Pessimism / cynicism / “siege mentality”
Not physically attracted to her
Attractive qualities are the opposites above
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Norseman82
Guest
One of the defining characteristics of vocation is that it is permanent, not temporary. Please keep in mind that marriage and religious life/orders have “vows” (or “solemn promises”, in the case of diocesan priesthood) that “lock” one into it. It is more accurate to call it a temporray “state of life”.
No. People were given free will, and people need to stop blaming God and instead take responsibility for their use (or misuse) of their free will.
But the premise of this thread is people who have the vocation to marriage. Do you know what I say to a male who knows he can handle being single and celibate his whole life? Answer: “Bless me father for I have sinned”.
That was touched upon in this thread and, to a certain point, was effectively debunked by Bataar and AnneElizabeth:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=986471
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Xantippe
Guest
It’s quite possible to be married, to be widowed, and then pursue a vocation to religious life or diocesan priesthood.
Marriage is not necessarily a permanent vocation. Otherwise, widows and widowers would be compelled by duty to remarry.
This isn’t doctrine, but many people think (and I think this is correct–at least subjectively) that the vocation to marriage is often a vocation to marry a particular person, just as a celibate vocation may be very specific (to the diocesan priesthood versus to the Dominicans). I may be called to marry Steve, but not George, and Steve may be called to marry me, not Suzie.
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Xantippe
Guest
I couldn’t find exactly what you mean, but I saw this quote from Bataar:
“If you can p(name removed by moderator)oint what makes you unhappy currently and realize that being married would fix a lot of those issues, then it stands to reason that people will think that will make them happier.”
That suggests the presence of a degree of self-knowledge which is not common among unhappy people.
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GreyWings
Guest
Thanks. I think I like you.
Hey, I’m just keeping it real. I find it offensive that someone would hold a person’s history, past, against them, when… uh, look at the Cross and all.
Everyone is a sinner. To hold a person’s past sins against them is a big fat red flag to me.
I’m not being nasty. I’m being honest.
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runningdude
Guest
Disagree. Very much like it when women make intentions clear
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ZellieFan
Guest
I really like this idea of bidding. It’s really interesting. …food for thought.
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Burt_Macklin
Guest
Well I’m married so my standards were not so high that they prevented me from finding someone. I always found that there were enough opportunities for me that I was able to eliminate anyone with a history of promiscuity or drug abuse. I know I was shooting for the stars but hey it worked.
I had the standards I did because I was able to witness several members of my family go through some very unhappy marriages because they ignored a troubling history in their potential spouses. I also saw that the first step to getting out of the trailer park was avoiding all of the drugs, drinking, and baby daddy drama that trapped so many of my peers. Plus I’m a cynical a-hole who doesn’t believe that most people are capable of change.
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GreyWings
Guest
You’re not being fair to the people who have repented and turned to the cross. Many saints, like Ignatius, was a womanizer and did bad things before he turned to God and then became a SAINT.
It is through suffering that we are brought closer to God. I’ve never been promiscuous or abused drugs but I have made mistakes likes everyone else; I’m not better than those people who were and repented, and neither are you. Jesus loves us all.
Just saying.
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Naskor
Guest
Think of it this way, if everyone could handle the temporary effects of sins we wouldn’t have need Jesus for us to die on the cross.
Having one’s sins forgiven restores the ability to receive God’s grace. It doesn’t mean they are sanctified and it doesn’t mean the earthy consequences of those sins go away.
If someone isn’t able to take up the challenges caused by someone’s sins, even repentant and forgiven sins, that doesn’t make less holy, less mature or less Christian, it makes them human.
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Norseman82
Guest
Well, if we’re going to “keep it real” and “honest”, what is offensive is for a virtuous man (and yes, they are out there; not every male has an “Augustinian past”) to be called a “holier than thou” simply for seeking a woman of similar virtue (and yes, I believe they are out there, and they are not all in the convents; we just need to find a way of bringing them together).
Look, we all have deal-breakers and standards of compatibility. Let me give you some examples (and I would hope that the “analogy police” would look at the point being made rather than dissect the objects used in the analogy). Would you fault someone who grew up in an abusive childhood situation to want to avoid someone who has a temper, even if it was in the past and the person went to confession? Similarly, a person who grew up in a home situation where there was alcohol abuse may be hesitant to marry someone who is in AA because he/she does not want to risk a relapse and reliving that horrible nightmare for the rest of his/her life. Are these people offensive “holier than thous”?
Considering whether a person’s past is compatible with yours is not a “red flag”, but rather an act of prudence. If someone does not find you compatible, don’t bite his head off; rather, move on and find someone else who is compatible.
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Xantippe
Guest
A heavy porn and masturbation habit also counts toward an “Augustinian” past, and in some ways can be more burdensome to deal with than past relationships with actual human beings.
I would personally look in askance at a guy with an encyclopedia of porn on his computer (or in his head) who wants a virgin bride.
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Norseman82
Guest
Oh. For. Crying. Out. Loud.
Where do you come up with wanting a compatible spouse = porn and masturbation habit? Where do you come up with these weird logical gymnastics?
Let’s add these types of far-out accusations to the list of reasons men stop pursuing.
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