What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[1beleevr]

So, I guess that benedictus2 is saying that 1John 1:9, is invalid, and that if you interpret John 20:23, to mean that mortal man has the power to forgive sin, then my goodness, our fate is in the hands of men in confessionalsThe Pharisees even believed that only God could forgive sins! And what if this priest was having a bad day, and decided not to forgive my sins! Under the new covenant, we are able to come into the throneroom of grace! Hallelujah!

 

[benedictus2]

What would make a 1 Unifying Universal Church for me?

One that is formed on Biblical Truths.

The Catholic Church is the only Church based on Biblical Truth for it is the only Church that was actually mentioned in the Bible. The one that Christ founded on Peter. You cannot get any more Biblical than that. All other Churches are not Biblical. They are all manmade.

Belief in the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

We do, but this is all part Baptism itself for Christ said you must be born of water and Spirit. Notice, not just spirit. You must be born of water and sprit.

Speaking in Tongues for Personal Edification of prayer, Speaking in Tongues outloud for interpretation by another in the church, Prophecy, etc. all being allowed.

Speaking in tongues is not a requirement. In the entire book of the Bible this actually got limited mention. Paul mentions it in Corinthians and if you know the background to Corinthians, the church in Corinth is the one Paul was having the greatest difficulty with. In his letter, he is actually **downplaying **rather than emphasizing the importance of tongues.

All Marian Dogma dropped. Mary being seen as a great follower of the Lord, just as Paul was, just as Billy Graham is, etc. Seriously, if you have a bead necklace for prayer to Mary you need to make one for St. Paul! He was the MAN! Or better yet, St. Peter!!! HE WAS THE ROCK! Why not ask for intercession from him more than Mary? YOU SHOULD SEEK INTERCESSION FROM PETER 1,000,000 TIMES MORE TIMES THAN MARY! THAT DUDE WAS THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN!
Mary is just a person that played a role in God’s plan, just like John the Baptist. Jesus said that John the baptist was the GREATEST profit of all, and he then said that those who follow the son of man are even GREATER than John the baptist!! WOW, Jesus said I am GREATER than John the baptist. I certainly do not feel this way and it is very humbling, but I will believe him and just seek holiness as much as I can.

I looooove St. Peter. As a matter of fact he is my favourite saint. But there is no getting away from the fact that Mary is the THEOTOKOS, THE MOTHER OF GOD.

And we pray to St. Peter and all the other Saints but Mary of all people is the only one who on earth was already FULL OF GRACE. I don’t think you can even comprehend the depth of what that means.

Confession of Sin through a priest a requirement to the forgiveness of sins.

Honey, you should take that up with Christ Himself because it was He himself who instituted the Sacrament. Methinks you have a problem with His WILL.

I know that Jesus died for all my sins on the cross, I cannot re-crucify him.

And neither do we

I just need to make sure to ask for forgiveness for my sins to receive his purifying love. I do not NEED a person to hear my sins to be forgiven, but I do tell of my sins to others, such as my close friends or my wife.

Well then, you are going against His will because He specifically said to the apostles “whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained” The power was given to them and to their successors.

Perhaps you wish He had not said that.

I tell them where i am struggling, where I have sinned (confess them) and ask them for prayers in my growth in holiness.

That is also a good thing to do. They can forgive you the sins you have committed against them but those that you have commited against God and against other people they cannot forgive because they have not been given the power to do that. Whereas the priests have been given that power so you know that you are truly forgiven because Jesus Himself said so.

I dont know guys, this thread seem pointless.

Then go to another thread. It’s a free forum.

I know we all have our disagreements and we bicker back and forth. I just want you guys to know that you are my BROTHERS and SISTERS in Christ and I love you dearly! I cannot wait to spend eternity worshiping God with you in heaven with you, side by side, unified.

That is wonderful and I am sure that if we all persevere to the end we will see each other there. And there we will all be Catholics. Because Christ prayed for unity and that will be accomplished. In His time.

Until then I think us Christ followers all have a little bit of the puzzle wrong, but that has definitely not allowed the gates of hell to prevail against the universal church!! The Church has won! Christ has won!

Yes, yes and yes. That is why to this day, inspite of all the problems, the scandals and chaos that it went through the Catholic Church still stands strong. If it were not of divine origin it will have died by now. But 2000 years later it remains, for it is truly the Body of Christ.

 

[1beleevr]

Wow, cinette: You really have some rather eloquent answers; almost makes me want to believe them! When it comes to Mary(mother of Jesus, James, Joses, Jude,among others) there seems to be a difference in how we define disrespect! For me, disrespect is when you totally ignore or besmirch someone’s legacy, regardless of their situation! We non catholics, simply say that when we pray, we pray to our Father(not the pope), our Heavenly Father! In Matthew 6:6-13, Jesus, in telling Hid disciples how to pray, leads off with, “Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name” And as far as Buddhists and others, that do not recognize the divinity of Christ, and do not accept Him as their Saviour, no they are not part of the Bride of Christ!

 

[Thorwald]

No need to parade the verses here. If you know that the Catholic Church is the society founded by Christ, then you know that this society cannot teach or introduce evil doctrines as Jesus promised that he will always abide by His Church even until the consummation of the world. Not only that. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect the Church from error. St. Paul also said in one of his letters that the Church founded by Christ is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

If the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, then this Church is incapable of error. If she is incapable of errors, then all her teachings, including those you enumerated, are also of God’s. Did not Jesus also say that “whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”?

I am sorry to say, “You are totally brain-washed. Answer my request, that your thread (above) refers to.” You are also ignoring the ‘other’ teachings of Christ;

1. All Israel shall be saved.
2. We will return to the days of Noah.
3. The last days shall be filled with false prophesy, visions, dreams, fearful times, etc.
4. That God will provide wisdom to all of us, and that we should discuss these ‘gifts’ amongst ourselves, each in turn, given the opportunity to reveal what has been given unto us.

The Word of God is not owned by any man or any individual Christian church/religion. The minute that you make such a statement, you create a ‘parameter’ that you expect God to work within. What a horrible thing to do.

We must always think of what happened to Aaron’s sons, when they added incense to the offering. This happened, simply because they had carried out an act that God had not told them to do. What do you think God’s reaction is going to be, when we change (add to/delete from) His Word?

Thorwald Johansen

 

[1beleevr]

I guess that really is the $64,000 question, isn’t it;"Do you believe that the catholic church is the “church” that Christ founded?

 

[benedictus2]

So, I guess that benedictus2 is saying that 1John 1:9, is invalid, and that if you interpret John 20:23, to mean that mortal man has the power to forgive sin, then my goodness, our fate is in the hands of men in confessionals

Nope. I did not say that at all.

Our fate is not in the hands of man because Christ can forgive outside of those He commissioned.

It would be like if I have millions of dollars that I wanted to dole out and I said to my family, here’s the key to the safe, feel free to give to whoever you please. It does not mean that I no longer have access to my own money to give to whoever I please.

God gave the apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins but He is not limited by this commissioning.

The Pharisees even believed that only God could forgive sins!

Using what the Pharisees believed is not a very good argument. Jesus had some nasty words about them.

And what if this priest was having a bad day, and decided not to forgive my sins!

If you read the verse, He also gave them the Holy Spirit before He gave them the power to forgive sins. If the priest decided not to forgive you your sins, it will be because the Holy Spirit said you are not to be forgiven.

Under the new covenant, we are able to come into the throneroom of grace! Hallelujah!

Only if our sins are forgiven.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess that really is the $64,000 question, isn’t it;"Do you believe that the catholic church is the “church” that Christ founded?

Regardless of whether you believe it or not does not matter because it is as some die hard protestants have found out to their great joy.

The only sad thing is, so long as you do not believe then you remain outside of His Church. If that is where you prefer to be that is okay. Free will man.

God will not yank you into His Church, He gives you the freedom to say no to Him.

 

[Thorwald]

I guess that really is the $64,000 question, isn’t it;"Do you believe that the catholic church is the “church” that Christ founded?

From my understanding, the Orthodox church was the first.

Thorwald Johansen

P.S. I have to leave the internet for about half an hour. I will be back.

 

[benedictus2]

From my understanding, the Orthodox church was the first.

Thorwald Johansen

P.S. I have to leave the internet for about half an hour. I will be back.

And your understanding would not be correct. From the beginning there was only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Then the east west schism happened.

Here is a little bit of history lesson for you.

Timeline of the East West Schism

The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are two lungs of the one body, so to speak.

 

[benedictus2]

Thank you for your regurgitation of scripture. I already have this in my KJV Bible, but thank you for providing me with it again (just in case I didn’t have it). Now, regurgitate the scripture that requires us to, say ‘Hail Maries’; use rosaries; make statues; make 'man-made saints and pray to them; baptize infants that do not have a clue what is going on; recognize the Catholic Church as the one and only true Church; put parameters on God in such a way, that He can only choose a R.C. in order to provide wisdom unto the rest of mankind; accept only a R.C. as being in a position to ‘be found worthy’; etc.

Thorwald Johansen

Hmm such anger! JHargus was not regurgitating scripture. He was merely PROVIDING YOU with scriptural support for Catholic doctrine. And voila all of a sudden you get upset because he is able to quote scripture. What’s with that?

Saints are not man made. God makes us saints not man. It is Christ life, death and resurrection that makes us saints.

The Hail Mary is in actual fact based on scripture. Aahh but yes, the irritable Thorwald calls this regurgitating scripture.

We baptize infants because we do not excluse anyone from Christ’s promise of salvation. The apostles baptized whole households. Chrirst said let the children come to me.

And the parameters of God chosing the RC well Christ did find a Church after all. It says so clearly in the Matthew 16. God did not have to but He did. This is the way He chose to effect salvation. That those He will saved will be called into the Church.

In Acts 2:47: "And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved".

To be saved you have to be added to the Church that Christ founded on Peter.

 

[1beleevr]

There is great freedom and joy in being outside of the catholic church! When I hear my catholic friends using profanity, getting drunk, and then saying,“It’s okay, I’m going to confession tomorrow”, I scratch my head, and thank Christ for His grace and mercy! And whether catholics accept us or not, we are,1)Saved by the blood of the Lamb, 2)Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Matthew 28:20), and we are Christians, which also makes us part of the Bride of Christ! All who call upon the Name of Jesus will be saved

 

[benedictus2]

The Word of God is not owned by any man or any individual Christian church/religion.

True. But there is no getting away from the fact that the Church came first and the Word of God was written within her bossom. The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible.

The minute that you make such a statement, you create a ‘parameter’ that you expect God to work within. What a horrible thing to do.

Jhargus was not setting a parameter that he expects God to work withiin. Rather he is merely stating the parameter that God himself set. It was God Himself who set the parameter by first of all starting a Church.

God could have just walked around with a secretary and told him to take a dictation so he can leave us a Holy Book but no He did not do that.

What did He do instead? He started a Church. And it is this Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that wrote the NT.

 

[benedictus2]

There is great freedom and joy in being outside of the catholic church! When I hear my catholic friends using profanity, getting drunk, and then saying,“It’s okay, I’m going to confession tomorrow”, I scratch my head, and thank Christ for His grace and mercy! And whether catholics accept us or not, we are,1)Saved by the blood of the Lamb, 2)Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Matthew 28:20), and we are Christians, which also makes us part of the Bride of Christ! All who call upon the Name of Jesus will be saved

Aaah the Pharisee is emerging! Beware, Christ had such dire words for the likes of you.

Petal, there are protestants who use profanity and get drunk. This is not the sole domain of Catholics. All Christians sin. Jimmy Swaggart was caught with his pants down. James White’s father who was a pastor sexually abused his daughter and James White took his father’s side on the matter.

If you have indeed been baptized in the Trinitarian way then indeed you have been properly baptized.

And yes, if you are indeed saved then you are saved by the Blood fo the Lamb.

But no, not all who call on the name of Jesus will be saved. Jesus Himself said that not all who call him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom. Who will? Those who do the will of His Father.

 

[1beleevr]

Okay, my mission, should I decide to accept it, is, to find the word catholic in the Bible; and I do accept the challenge, because benedictus2 says that it’s in there

 

[Thorwald]

Hmm such anger! JHargus was not regurgitating scripture. He was merely PROVIDING YOU with scriptural support for Catholic doctrine. And voila all of a sudden you get upset because he is able to quote scripture. What’s with that?

Saints are not man made. God makes us saints not man. It is Christ life, death and resurrection that makes us saints.

The Hail Mary is in actual fact based on scripture. Aahh but yes, the irritable Thorwald calls this regurgitating scripture.

We baptize infants because we do not excluse anyone from Christ’s promise of salvation. The apostles baptized whole households. Chrirst said let the children come to me.

And the parameters of God chosing the RC well Christ did find a Church after all. It says so clearly in the Matthew 16. God did not have to but He did. This is the way He chose to effect salvation. That those He will saved will be called into the Church.

In Acts 2:47: "And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved".

To be saved you have to be added to the Church that Christ founded on Peter.

I thought that in order to be saved, we have to believe in Jesus Christ (in all that this encompasses), and then be baptised. How does a new-born fit into this? I know that we are to let children hear the Word of God, and not turn them away (this is in the KJV Bible also).

Please quote the scripture, that ‘Hail Mary’ is based upon (and while you are at it, the rosary, also).

We hear over and over, the creation of ‘saints’ by the Pope. Has not a single person told you of these ‘creations’?

Your view concerning the R.C. Church being on a special pedistal, is obnoxious. It is written, that we do not even know if our own spouses are saved ( 1 Cor, chpt 7, I believe). Here you are telling me, that every single member of your church, is saved. I doubt this claim. I know a lot of R.C. people, personally, and by their words and actions, I can tell that they are not saved. Do not play ‘the Holy’ role with me. It won’t work. You will know a man/woman by their deeds.

The apostles did indeed go forth, and start forming groups and congregations, that truly lived up to Christ’s teachings. It is what has happened since, that I protest against. The majority have returned to the days of Noah (all religions). Do you ever watch t.v., or listen to general conversations in a coffee shop, etc.? Tell me that what you see and hear, is righteous. It is the opposite. Many that go to church, will not even bring their Bible with them in public. Christ, Himself warns us, that if we are ashamed of Him, He will not come forward in our defense on judgement day.

I am not angry with people. I am angry with how people have been deceived by satan in such a way, that they believe that they, personally, are righteous, but Jesus doesn’t know them. Their ‘works’ tell us the truth.

Thorwald Johansen

 

[benedictus2]

Okay, my mission, should I decide to accept it, is, to find the word catholic in the Bible; and I do accept the challenge, because benedictus2 says that it’s in there

Your mission (and you ought to accept it), is that you should, first and foremost learn to read and understand posts properly, using spectacles where necessary.

Where did I say that the word Catholic is in the Bible?

I said that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded in Matthew 16:18 because it is the only one that can trace itself back in unbroken line to the time in Ceasarian Philipi when Jesus said to Simon, “Thou are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church” and to the time fo the Pentecost which happens to be the birthday of the Catholic Church.

Now, if you have kept to your mission, you will read this post a few times and ponder on it before replying.

 

[Cinette]

What IS the Bible?
It is the eternal Word of God. Jesus is that word made flesh.
Listen to Pastor Nelson Turner’s sermon “What the Bible SAYS About Itself” available for free download at:
sites.google.com/site/AV1611Reformation/Home/sermons

No adjudication on biblical meaning is really necessary in the same sense that matters of “natural law” can’t be debated in denial of their clear meaning. Everyone “knows” abortion is murder. God wrote that into our souls when He created us. Similarly, we know what His words mean, if He has chosen us to know. And the pope or the bishops around him don’t know any better than any elect person just what God’s word says. God puts belief into us; “faith is a gift”. What we believe is not from some committee in Rome.
Psalm 119:89 “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.”
Proverbs 30:5 “Every word of God is pure…”

*Really?

"God puts belief into us “raith is a gift” - true. But how do you know that God has put an intrepretation into your heart - if your interpretation is different from the other person?

I think it would be wise to read what Jesus said about His Church and to His Apostles. Surely Jesus kept his promises that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church into all truth? You really need to reflect these things.

Peace
Cinette*

 

[benedictus2]

I thought that in order to be saved, we have to believe in Jesus Christ (in all that this encompasses), and then be baptised. How does a new-born fit into this?

Once you start going this line of thinking you are really opening up yourself for a lot of nasty questions and conclusions.

First, are you saying that Christ is excluding the new born from all those He desire to be saved?

Second, should a new born die, because they have not declared Jesus as their Lord and saviour, does that mean they are damned? You realize that this line of thinking can also be applied to those who cannot make any form of informed consent e.g. those born with mental defects.

I know that we are to let children hear the Word of God, and not turn them away (this is in the KJV Bible also).

Jesus did not say let the children hear the Word of God. Jesus said let the children COME to me. How do you make a baby who does not understand a thing COME TO JESUS? You baptize him/her.

Please quote the scripture, that ‘Hail Mary’ is based upon (and while you are at it, the rosary, also).

Okay, a little bit of Catholic Catechism.

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with you (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus (Luke 1:42}
The second part is an petition asking Mary to pray for us"
Holy Mary Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. " An echo of her intercession at Cana.

That’s the Hail Mary.

The Rosary is a meditation on the Life, Death and Ressurection of Christ our Lord.

The rosary consists of 5 sets of 1 large bead and 10 little beads.
You pray the Our Father on the large bead and the Hail Mary’s on the 10 little bead.

At each set of large and small beads you meditate on Scripture.

Frist Set: Joyfull Mysteries:

1. 
   *]Annunciation (The Angel Gabriel announcement of incarnation of Christ)
   *]Visitation (Mary visit Elizabeth and John the Baptist leaps in her womb)
   *]Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ
   *]Presentation of Jesus at the Temple
   *]Finding of Jesus in the Temple
   
   2nd set is Sorrowful Mysteries.
   1. The Agony of Jesus in the Garden
   2. The Scourgin of Jesus at the Pillar
   3. The Crowning of Thorns
   4. The Carrying of the Cross
   5. The Death of of Jesus on the Cross.
   3rd Set Mysteries of Light
   1. 
      *]Baptism of Jesus
      *]Wedding of Cana
      *]The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
      *]The Transfiguration
      *]The Institution of the Eucharist
      
      4th Glorious Mysteries.
      1. 
         *]Resurrection of Jesus
         *]Ascension of Jesus
         *]Descent of the Holy Spirit
         *]Assumption of the Virgin Mary
         *]Coronation of Blessed Virgin Mary
         
         Note: in this set of mysteries only 2 are directly extra-Biblical.
         
         I have not indicated the Biblical verses for the mysteries because I am assuming that being Biblically informed you will know these verses.
         

         We hear over and over, the creation of ‘saints’ by the Pope. Has not a single person told you of these ‘creations’?

         See here again, you get it wrong. Whoever said Popes created saints are protestants who have ill will in their hearts. The Pope declares someone a saint once a rigorious study of a person’s life has been completed and it has been shown that they have indeed lived a truly Christian life and that we are now sure that they are in heaven. This is usually becasue people who asked for their intercession have received some miraculous healing.
         
         All the Pope is doing is affirming that a certain person has indeed been saved because they are now with Jesus.
         
         If you look at some protestant doctrines, this is what you believe too when you are belive in the assurance of salvation. Only for you there is this great assumption that you are assured of salvation.
         

         Your view concerning the R.C. Church being on a special pedistal, is obnoxious.

         Sorry that you find that it is obnoxious but you have to take that up with Christ Himself. He founded the Church so vent your anger at Him.
         

         It is written, that we do not even know if our own spouses are saved ( 1 Cor, chpt 7, I believe). Here you are telling me, that every single member of your church, is saved.

         Thorwald, Thorwald, Thorwald. I am not saying that at all. Notice the phrasing. All who are BEING saved.
         

         I doubt this claim. I know a lot of R.C. people, personally, and by their words and actions, I can tell that they are not saved.

         What!!!??? Another pharisee in our midst!!
         
         Actually much worse than that. Someone who presumes to be God because he knows that they are not saved.
         
         Remember Jesus story about the Pharisee and Publican? Watch what you say Buddy.

 

[Thorwald]

True. But there is no getting away from the fact that the Church came first and the Word of God was written within her bossom. The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible.

The Word of God came first (ie. as verbal teachings). The ‘written’ Word is a documentation of these teachings.

Jhargus was not setting a parameter that he expects God to work withiin. Rather he is merely stating the parameter that God himself set. It was God Himself who set the parameter by first of all starting a Church.

If you cannot see the difference between only recognizing R.C. and not others who are saved, then I feel very sorry for you. You have become ‘high-headed’. Christ visited the dead, that had no connection to any church. He gave them the same chance for redemption. I guess that Christ didn’t know that only a R.C. can be saved, or that Christ made an error by saying that all Israel shall be saved. Maybe He doesn’t know this. In your next prayer, it would be nice of you to provide Him with this information. I wouldn’t want Him to do anything wrong.

God could have just walked around with a secretary and told him to take a dictation so he can leave us a Holy Book but no He did not do that.

What did He do instead? He started a Church. And it is this Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that wrote the NT.

R.C. seem to miss the whole point. There is nothing wrong with the original teachings. It is what has taken place since.

Thorwald Johansen

 

[benedictus2]

R.C. seem to miss the whole point. There is nothing wrong with the original teachings. It is what has taken place since.

Thorwald Johansen

And what has taken place since?