.What the Bible Really Says on Homosexuality in 5 Quotes. A short article

[o_mlly]

In my years on this forum I have lost count of the number of threads on homosexuality.

Years? According to your bio it’s 1 year and almost 2 months. Do you know what happens when you copy another poster’s circular avatar and paste it?

I can’t honestly remember one that took fellow Catholics to task regarding contraception.

If we saw Catholics organizing a “Fornicate Safely - Use the Pill” parade then you’d see some threads. But those Catholics who do contracept remain in the closet and do not celebrate their disorder in a bogus attempt to normalize it.

 

[Gorgias]

Do you know how many Catholics use contraception and have sex outside of a marriage?

They sin when they do that. Yep. No argument there.

Do you know the largest group by religion that has abortions?

Would that also be the largest religious group in general (and thus, not really much of a point)?

Let me know when the problem with the beams has been rectified.

Notice that the context isn’t “do nothing to help others while you yourself are imperfect”, but rather, “don’t judge others while you yourself are subject to judgment”.

I don’t see “judgment” going on in this thread, so I think your assertion is unscriptural. Worth noting, perhaps, and a skillful attempt… but still, kinda missing the point.

BTW, you will find nothing in the bible in favour or against birth control. There is simply no commentary that speaks directly to it.

Hmm… we’re gonna hafta have a talk about Onan, aren’t we?

In my years on this forum I have lost count of the number of threads on homosexuality. I can’t honestly remember one that took fellow Catholics to task regarding contraception.

Dear fellow Catholics: please stop contracepting!

(There ya go. How’s that? )

Freddy:

I think Corinthians covers about 90% of the population with numerous sins. Why pick out homosexuality?

Probably because there are not large factions inside and outside the church pushing to justify rampant use of pornography, adultery, or drug use, nor is there a prominent “Child Pornography Pride Parade” annually in cities across America. I don’t see Priests and lay people seeking to achieve greater acceptance of the Catholic men who regularly abuse pornographic materials. Why is that, I wonder?

We tackle the problems most pressing and lethal that are at the forefront first

Yep, @Freddy, I’m with @Dr_Meinheimer on this one: it gets a lot of attention because it’s something in play in society at present.

The contraception kerfuffle, by and large, was part of the conversation in the 60’s and 70’s. I’d suggest that it would have gotten coverage in all the Catholic web fora back then (umm… if there were any, that is )…!

 

[Freddy]

Dear fellow Catholics: please stop contracepting!

(There ya go. How’s that?)

We tackle the problems most pressing and lethal that are at the forefront first

Yep, @Freddy, I’m with @Dr_Meinheimer on this one: it gets a lot of attention because it’s something in play in society at present.

You could start a thread on the evils of contraception and see how it goes. It will be a novelty so it may gain some traction.

And I agree with you and the good doctor. You pay it more attention than it deserves. But it’s self perpetuating. The more you complain about it, the more pushback you’ll get. So the more you complain about it. Rinse and repeat.

If you made as much fuss about contraception as you do about homosexuality and tried to get the pill banned for example, then you’d see more marches and demonstrations than you’d possibly imagine. But you don’t. It seems to be that most Catholics think that it’s a battle lost and there’s no inclination to use up religious capital in fighting against it. There are other targets easier to hit. Other battles that might be won.

But what is happening these days is that there are less marches in support of gay rights. For the simple reason that they have what they wanted. Acceptance into society. Sydney has to be one of the gayest cities on the planet (next to San Fran perhaps) but there’s less and less overt displays of homosexuality here these days. What we have now is a situation where memorials are proposed to remember those in the gay community who suffered the ultimate consequence of them being ‘different’: 'Painful legacy': Bondi Memorial to victims of gay hate crimes

And there’ll come a time that on forums such as this, the only comments you’ll see about what you think is a problem will be: Dear fellow Catholics: please stop accepting homosexuality!

About the same as you get about contraception these days.

 

[Gorgias]

If you made as much fuss about contraception as you do about homosexuality and tried to get the pill banned for example, then you’d see more marches and demonstrations than you’d possibly imagine.

Do you really think so? I agree with your assertion that most feel that this battle has been fought and lost, quite a while ago.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If you made as much fuss about contraception as you do about homosexuality and tried to get the pill banned for example, then you’d see more marches and demonstrations than you’d possibly imagine.

Do you really think so? I agree with your assertion that most feel that this battle has been fought and lost, quite a while ago.

You’ve lost the one on homosexuality as well. Whether you just don’t know it yet or just don’t want to admit it…I’m not sure.

Edit: Or maybe you were talking about homosexuality?

 

[o_mlly]

You’ve lost the one on homosexuality as well. Whether you just don’t know it yet or just don’t want to admit it…I’m not sure.

The win-lose attitude discloses a dysfunctional mentality. To such a dysfunctional person, the use of deception in order to win is seen as a strength rather than a defect. Sound familiar, Fred?

The first deceiver was a liar from the beginning.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[MarkRome]

This article provides passages in the Bible condemning homosexual acts.

I tend to not Bible thump when it comes to homosexual acts. The better argument is from natural law, which is where the revealed law comes from.

 

[Gorgias]

You’ve lost the one on homosexuality as well. Whether you just don’t know it yet or just don’t want to admit it…I’m not sure.

In the wider culture? Yeah, it feels like that, too.

Within the confines of Christianity or Catholicism? That’s an interesting question.

 

[JohnStrachan]

I think the RC Church has lost the contraceptive battle and it’s partly their own fault. My own experience is that clergy are loathe to talk about this matter - as if they have much in the way of credibility to speak on it in the first place. And NFP is an afterthough in most parishes. Marriage prep courses merely mention it, but leave it to one’s conscience. In addition, NFP courses are few and far between in most diocese (at least here in Canada).
.
There is a lack of consistent messaging from the church on the matter of contraception. First, the church says it’s intrinsically evil, but then do little to promote the alternative. Second, there are too many clergy who don’t believe it themselves. Third, it’s hard to compel people to play Catholic roulette, when it just doesn’t make sense from the point of reason that every act of intercourse needs to be open to the transmission of life. Most people are smart enough to realize that if that were the case, every household would have ten kids , and that isn’t a pleasant thought for most people. Present company included. Fourth, it doesn’t help that most RC’s - yes even the faithful ones - believe the church just made this stuff up. There is no basis in scripture, the church has a huge hang-up on sex and it’s all about control. Few people buy it anymore.

 

[goout]

Dealing with contraception is difficult because chastity itself is very difficult. Chastity is an exercise in self mastery , and the proper integration of sexuality within the whole of the person. And we as human beings don’t practice self control well at all. Our current culture preaches against self control. So contraception is a very difficult thing to deal with. But chastity is still worth pursuing to the best of our ability. I personally have a C- in this area, but every day I want to do better because it’s the only way forward as a Christian. The fact that chastity is difficult and most people don’t practice it does not excuse our responsibility.

I just want to observe a misconception in your post. Being open to life means nothing like having ten kids. Being open to life means a well ordered and whole-some sexual life. And to have good order, a human being needs to claim the wise counsel that God has given to us. God himself has left us in the power of our own counsel to plan families. The couple must take hold of this responsibility and work it out every day. That doesn’t mean we “have ten kids” because we do risky behaviors.

Our catechists have failed miserably in presenting the Church’s view of human sexuality and the theology that underlies it. And it all starts with the presenting the foundation of morality, which is that morality points a person to the good. There is way too much moralizing and prohibition, for their own sake.
Observing moral precepts and prohibitions are never self serving or seen as super-hero accomplishments. They point a person to deeper fulfillment, and a catechist needs the capability to connect those dots in a clear way.

 

[JohnStrachan]

Being open to life means a well ordered

I absolutely agree with this. But the church does a poor job of explaining this. Being “ordered” toward is the reasaonable argument against so many sexual sins, but this is overlooked. Things are often explained as good or bad because the church says so. That is a good enough argument for my 6 year old, but not good enough for my teenagers.

 

[goout]

yes agree.
The current context I see for this problem is that we no longer live in the age of Christendom whereby the culture is infused with Christian values and all that is required is to explain these and invoke commonly accepted authority.

 

[Freddy]

yes agree.
The current context I see for this problem is that we no longer live in the age of Christendom whereby the culture is infused with Christian values and all that is required is to explain these and invoke commonly accepted authority.

A couple of thoughtful posts by you and @JohnStrachan. And John’s certainly didn’t pull any punches. And you might have hit the nail on the head with yours.

We don’t live in just a Christian culture any more. When I grew up there was nothing but Christianity. My families life revolved around the church (Anglican). But as I grew up, and certainly when I moved away from home, it became obvious that there were different ways of looking at life. And I automatically started to question what I’d been told.

And young people do this all the time these days. Time was when you’d get a clip around the ear for questioning your teacher. But now it’s expected that you do so. And those who teach you better have a better answer than the one I was constantly told when I was growing up: ‘Because I say so’.

 

[JohnStrachan]

Because I say so

You know what drives me nuts? The stuff that the church just makes up. They do this under the authority that Jesus gave Peter the keys to bind on earth and heaven and subsequent popes took it to heart.

THe RC church makes up

• the story that Mary was perpetually a virgin, even though the bible says otherwise.
• the discipline of celibacy, even though scripture suggests otherwise
• that women cannot be clergy because they cannot embody the humanity of Christ
• that Mary was assumed into heaven - there is no evidence of this, but it’s presumed because the God-bearer had to be free of sin
• that the earth had to be the centre of the universe - until science proved it otherwise
• that every act of intercourse must be open to the transmission of life despite the fact that large human litters would make no sense
• that heretics has to be purified (e.g. burned at the stake, stoned, etc,) - without acknowledging that this really isn’t that very Christ-like
• that somehow God willed the Crusades

I mean I could go on. But it’s this sort of hubris that has the church in a pickel these days. How do I explain in a rational, logical, and loving way that the church is “the” way we learn about and model Christ, when they just amke stuff up that I can’t explain. My kids just go on-line and find all sorts of explanations that are contrary to church teaching.

 

[MasterXploder7]

If I may, @goout and @JohnStrachan, I have personally tried and tried to figure out how contraception is evil. It is infuriating for me to find someone who talks about it and then shrouds what they have to say in rhetorical words only to have their actual logic fall short for me. I want to understand and when I don’t understand/agree it becomes a mountainous issue. This is almost a tirade but I hope it adds to the conversation even though it is in the first person. (I actually cut out like 4 paragraphs here if either of you are interested in what I had to say, I will post it since its in my clip board and whatever you all have to say may help)

 

[MasterXploder7]

the story that Mary was perpetually a virgin, even though the bible says otherwise.

Oh! So, as far as I know, the actual language of the Bible is unclear because of what it means to be a “Brother” - which can also mean cousin or apparently someone that is very close to you!

the discipline of celibacy, even though scripture suggests otherwise

The Catholic Church allows Eastern Rite priests to be married! (EDIT I think Anglican priests who convert can also be married if they are already married before they convert!

that women cannot be clergy because they cannot embody the humanity of Christ

There was an ecumenical council that said “a deaconess should be at least 40 years old”

that Mary was assumed into heaven - there is no evidence of this, but it’s presumed because the God-bearer had to be free of sin

I have heard that the bishops were not fond of the Marian doctrines when they came out because they could not be Biblicaly defended - but I cannot confirm if there is any actual documentation of this…

 

[meltzerboy2]

Yes, and in particular, for your children. Just as the Jews and gypsies were coming for your children according to Nazi propaganda. The endangerment of children was the common link. The first “holocaust” in Nazi Germany, before the Jews, was targeted against male homosexuals.

 

[JohnStrachan]

Oh! So, as far as I know, the actual language of the Bible is unclear because of what it means to be a “Brother” - which can also mean cousin or apparently someone that is very close to you!

Isn’t is reasonable to presume that Mary “would” have sex? God did say in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply. So why the aversion to Mary having sex with Joseph, enjoying it and bearing more children. Why should their marriage be any different than all the others? I think it stems from the RC churches preoccupation with sex as being impure, unclean and enjoyable.

 

[stpurl]

The BIble does NOT say that Mary was not a perpetual virgin. The fact that the first PROTESTANTS including Calvin and Luther (not to mention Wycliffe, Hus, etc) believed in her perpetual virginity shows that this is the correct Christian understanding. It is a teaching of men who incorrectly and on their own, in a private interpretion, took ‘until’ to mean, “and then something happened after’, who messed up.

Say, John, Scripture tells us that Jesus will rule until all enemies are under his feet. Does that mean he’ll STOP ruling after? It does by your Protestant interpretation.

Scripture tells us that Michal, daughter of Saul and wife of David, had ‘no children until her death.” Did she have children after? She MUST have, by your Protestant interpretation.

Oh and please, by the way, don’t neglect our Orthodox brethren. Tell them that in addition to the Catholic Church’s carrying on the apostolic understanding of Mary’s perpetual virginity since AD 33, that they, who have carried the teaching just as long are wrong too.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Oh for the good old, bad old days when teachers were treated as authority figures.