What wage is just?

[Sarcelle]

Yes, the Protestant work ethic or more specifically, the Calvinist Work Ethic.

Prosperity is seen as a sign that one is a member of the elect.

 

[buffalo]

f there were no national minimum wage, some people would try to hire folks to work for less than $5 an hour.

Who would take that job?

 

[Elf01]

Who would take that job?

If every company was paying that, and I suspect most would if they could, then people would have no choice but to take it.

 

[Dracarys]

I am amazed that those demanding a higher wage are so smart that they know what any business can afford. I am a retired CPA and I can tell you that employers don’t just pay the wage, they must also pay payroll taxes, unemployment, worker comp insurance etc. in addition to wages. It is the EMPLOYEES responsibility to offer utility (skills, knowledge) to the employer to justify what they earn. Employers are NOT charities and it is not their responsibility to be concerned about the financial status of their employees.

 

[tafan2]

Sigh,. an employee relieving pay for work is just “taking your money”. An employee wanting a just wage is just “begging for a handout”.

Greed is getting thick here.

 

[buffalo]

If every company was paying that, and I suspect most would if they could, then people would have no choice but to take it.

Or no one would take it and the employer would have to respond with a higher offer.

The market determines what any job is worth.

 

[Elf01]

Or no one would take it and the employer would have to respond with a higher offer.

If it’s the only salary on offer people won’t have much choice.

 

[buffalo]

If it’s the only salary on offer people won’t have much choice.

Supply and demand come into play here.

Minimum wage law actually changes the ability for the person to make the best choice for he and his family. Now we see government mandates causing automation that replaces opportunity. For example, in the past teens took minimum wage jobs that were low skilled and basic. It taught them and gave them workplace experience. Now they have less opportunities because min wage has made automation a viable alternative. Bottom line - they lose.

They always have choices.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I am personally not in favor of minimum wage laws, nor do I see them as the only alternative. In Denmark, for instance, we don’t have minimum wage laws. We do however have a system of collective bargaining.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Now they have less opportunities because min wage has made automation a viable alternative. Bottom line - they lose.

They always have choices.

I don’t think this is realistic story. Automation has happened regardless of minimum wage laws, which at any rate in the US is at a miniscule 7.5$, and even at such a low level it did not prevent automation.

That more and more menial and unskilled labor is going to replaced by automation is a fact of life. No one sane would become a truck driver when its a given that the fleets are going to fulled automated in less than ten years.

The idea that people always have choices in capitalist systems is nonsensical on the face of it. Tell that to the people in flyover states who are living in trailer home on welfare. Where are they going to get the money to move to another state, where they can potentially work?

 

[leonhardprintz]

Given the way some here use the term, I am uncertain what exactly is meant.

Its a well-defined term. I don’t think there is any reason to assume bad faith, or ignorance.

Coughing up a specific number for a living wage without any information tells me that they do not have a grasp of the concept.

Why do they have to justify specifics of those numbers to you. Those depends on particular conditions. For instance a living wage in San Francisco is undoubtedly higher than in Houston, because of the difference in housing prices.

I think unless you have very good reasons to object its reasonable to assume 15$ fits most cases in the US. Though for San Francisco it should probably be above 20$. Not only is there consensus on those numbers, but its not really hard finding multiple studies going into details to show that it takes around that amount for a typical person to live.

A wage lower than that can not be considered a living wage.

 

[Pattylt]

Or no one would take it and the employer would have to respond with a higher offer.

The market determines what any job is worth.

I struggle with this concept. Farmers are bemoaning the lack of cheap immigrant labor and state that they can’t get Americans to do the work, yet they aren’t trying to solve the problem by offering higher wages.

Can anyone explain this? Thanks

 

[Dracarys]

I don’t understand those saying that workers have no choice. Really? Those who live in America have more opportunities than ever before. Unemployment is the lowest it’s been in years. If you want more money go to trade school or college. Turn off that useless TV and start studying and applying yourself. It’s up to YOU to offer skills that make you marketable. And no being good at Fortnite is NOT a marketable skill. Also don’t forget about the entrepenural route of starting your own business.

 

[leonhardprintz]

If you want more money go to trade school or college.

Which requires money. All very well if you have the resources to do that, but tell that to the people who used to work in the coal mines that are shut down now, and aren’t opening despite all of the promises the latest president has given them.

Turn off that useless TV and start studying and applying yourself… being good at Fortnite is NOT a marketable skill.

I’m not overly fond of shaming the poor like this. It seems to me both unfair, and a strawman characterization of them.

 

[Dracarys]

Leon said: "Which requires money. All very well if you have the resources to do that, "

Leonhardprintz that’s just more excuses! Are you trying to tell me people with no money can’t better themselves? it’s just impossible?Actually you are the one “shaming the poor” by assuming they are helpless and have no creativity or determination. Do you want them to wait for the government to give them a handout before they take action? Why would anyone wait for the government to follow through on promises? Do it yourself.

As for my TV comment I meant that for rich and poor alike. I know when I was younger I wasted hours in front of the idiot box. Again, we live in the best country in the world. We all have opportunities to get student loans, work a second job etc. One can make excuses or one can better themselves. It’s up to you!

 

[leonhardprintz]

Are you trying to tell me people with no money can’t better themselves? it’s just impossible?

You’re painting with a very broad brush, and speaking in general terms. It would depend on their circumstances. We’re not given equal circumstances, or equal opportunities for happiness.

I know of at least one sunshine story who made his way by his bootstraps from a mining town, into self-employment doing work with IT. He’d agree with me that a lot of the people from the area he came from were given a rough deal.

He blames the government, and I agree with him.

Do you want them to wait for the government to give them a handout before they take action?

Its not that simple. No one wants to live on welfare, its a meager pay, and anything is better than that. What is needed is job opportunities, but since capitalism tends towards globalization that becomes problematic. A family might have been factory workers for generations, and in the course of a year those factories shut down, and open somewhere else.

This leaves us with some families who have money and the ability to pull up their roots and travel to a new place, and retrain for a new kind of job.

Others don’t have those opportunities. They live on that “living wage” which people here have argued is too much to ask for. That’s enough to cover basic living expenses.

You’re right that there’s such a thing as training, and being self-taught. Online resources have certainly made that a lot easier to get access to, and sometimes you’re lucky and you can find companies that will take you despite you not having any specific certifications.

However again, without looking at specific situations, any discussion about what’s easy or hard for people to do is meaningless.

You cannot compare your own life to others.

Again, we live in the best country in the world.

I live in Denmark, I disagree.

 

[buffalo]

I struggle with this concept. Farmers are bemoaning the lack of cheap immigrant labor and state that they can’t get Americans to do the work, yet they aren’t trying to solve the problem by offering higher wages.

Can anyone explain this? Thanks

Automation - self guided tractors, pickers, fertilizers, milkers and processing.

 

[buffalo]

Which requires money. All very well if you have the resources to do that, but tell that to the people who used to work in the coal mines that are shut down now, and aren’t opening despite all of the promises the latest president has given them.

3/4 of college debt is still held by people 55 and older. Here is one program gaining steam.

2+ Programs - study, work and very little debt.

http://www.qmctechnologies.com/ptam...-for-manufacturing-cnc-machining-careers.html

Myths of Manufacturing - What’s true and what is not http://www.qmctechnologies.com/ptam/facts-myths-about-manufacturing-in-usa.html

 

[leonhardprintz]

2+ Programs - study, work and very little debt…

Your post doesn’t seem to be addressing anything I said. The closest I can get to an answer is the second link which talks of increasing job growth in that sector.

And that would be good. I am not against that.

But I fail to see how it responds to the points I made.

3/4 of college debt is still held by people 55 and older

This is quite alarming if its true of the US. It certainly isn’t in my country. Do you have any sources confirming this?

Though its also a bit of red herring, I haven’t talked about college education at any point, yet you’re responding to me about it?

 

[JimG]

Personally I’ve never worked in a job for which I had any training before I started. I would apply for any job opening, then learn how to do the job, on the job. One doesn’t stay in any job for life. I applied for a bank job without ever having worked at a bank, got the job and then learned banking. I applied for a loan underwriting job without ever having done underwriting. It wasn’t difficult. And that led to jobs in loan servicing, property management, and appraisal. As a college student I applied for a job as a hospital orderly, never having worked at a hospital, but somebody told me to do it because they were looking to hire someone, so I did, and was hired. It wasn’t a career, but I learned a lot.

A few years ago a friend of mine told me about his daughter, who was about 17 at the time. She got up one summer morning, got nicely dressed, and announced, “I’m going to look for a job!” She was hired the same day by a restaurant, one of her first jobs. Later in life, married and in a new city, and somewhat bored, she saw an ad in the newspaper for a journalist. She had no experience or training in jouranlism. But it was a small newspaper. She went there and applied. The publisher was skeptical, but she convinced him to give her a try. She was hired and did well. It’s all in the attitude, I think.