What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

Capitalism with governmental oversight and a broad welfare plan for those in need. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland have had basically that going for the past three generations, and those economies are strong and are growing well.

You do see that “capitalism with government oversight” is a non sequitur.

 

[Peeps]

I agree with so much of this.

My dad didn’t graduate from high school, and was working on his parent’s farm when he got drafted into the Korean War. He was able to get his G.E.D. (high school equivalency) in the Army, and when he got out, he was able to get a job at a factory in the small city closest to his farm. There, he was trained to be a pipefitter.

So now he had TWO jobs. And then he met my mother, and they eventually married and had two children, and he wanted to make still more money, so he saved every penny and did a lot of weekend jobs laying plumbing in houses (back then, in the 1960s, a person didn’t need to have a special trade certificate and be part of a pipefitters union to be able to lay plumbing).

He bought a duplex, and with the money from that property, brought another duplex, and kept buying and by the time he died, he owned 40 properties. He was a decent landlord, seeking out people who were down on their luck, and offering them really cheap rent if they would agree to put in “sweat equity” by painting, landscaping or gardening, mowing the lawn, shoveling the snow, etc. Sometimes he would let people live in his properties rent-free if they were old, or going through a tough time.

The point is–he didn’t have much to start with, but he took what he had and made it into a nice life. It helped that my mother was very intelligent (but had no high school diploma–grew up dirt-poor in the South), and she was able to run his rental properties mainly over the phone (she didn’t drive) and keep the books, pay the bills, etc.

My daughter and I just got back from visiting Magnolia in Waco, Texas. The couple that started this marketing empire were just ordinary folks. Joanna worked in her dad’s tire shop, and Chip ran several small businesses (laundry, lawn-mowing, etc.) while he was in college. When they got married, they started with a small shop, and they started buying small houses, fixing them up while they lived in them, and then selling them at a profit. Their lucky break came when they were picked up by Home and Gardens TV, and their TV show became the most popular show on the network.

They have invest their earnings back into their home city of Waco, and everyone in that town praises this lovely couple who have done so much to improve Waco and bring their city into the world’s view.

While we were in Waco, a large tour group from Australia had come to the U.S. to Waco, Texas just to see Magnolia. They had no other tourist destination–they just wanted to see Magnolia! Now that’s success!

People can and DO make good in the U.S.! It’s not just luck. It’s hard work and a willingness to not give up.

 

[Dracarys]

People can and DO make good in the U.S.! It’s not just luck. It’s hard work and a willingness to not give up.

This is what people like leonhardprintz just cant comprehend or even imagine because they live in a nanny state that takes care of them cradle to grave. They literally cannot imagine what they could do without big brother doling out gifts. It is really sad. Thanks for your story. I love hearing things like that especially about fellow landlords.

 

[Peeps]

Does leonhardprintz live in Denmark?

A few years ago I listened to an NPR broadcast about Denmark that described the benefits that citizens are entitled to from their government (through taxes), but…the broadcast made it clear that the culture of Denmark includes a strong work ethic–people who receive government aid are expected to work at something (unless they are infirm or disabled in some way). And the people who receive aid expect to work–the Denmark citizens don’t expect to receive a handout, just a hand-up.

Is this true? Is this really the way it is in Denmark? Or am I remembering the wrong country? We were listening to the podcast on a roadtrip, so maybe I am mistaken about Denmark.

I was really impressed. I was also impressed with the 1-year paid maternity leave taken by ,most moms in Denmark–to me, this demonstrates that the people understand the importance of that first year of child-rearing. I know a lot of women manage to breastfeed for a full year even when they work fullttime, but I also know that a lot of these women DON’T succeed in continuing breastfeeding once they return to work at 6-8 weeks post-partum. And I’ve seen first-hand how many working moms of babies under 1 year old only sleep about 4 hours out of the 24 because they are waking up several times during the night with their baby–often breastfeeding, but often to bottle feed the baby.

So I’m very much in favor of my taxes going towards supporting mothers of babies under one year taking that full year to stay home and raise their newborn. I would be willing to pay more taxes if women could have the option of staying home for a year and being guaranteed a return to their previous job (not an “equivalent job” within the company–blech!).

 

[leonhardprintz]

The sentence above should have begun, “I agree” as the description is not an alternative but an identity.

On the contrary, not all conservatives in the US would consider the above capitalism at all. Take for instance @Dracarys in this same thread “You do see that “capitalism with government oversight” is a non sequitur.”

I personally just consider it free market capitalism with welfare and governmental oversight.

But I’ve come to understand - mostly because Catholic Answers is a very US-centric forum - that few people here see it like that.

Social mobility in Denmark and the U.S. seem to be remarkably similar when looking exclusively at wages—that is, before including taxes and transfers.

Yes, so? What you’re saying is basically “If we disregard all the particular structures of Denmark, and the way they handle welfare, then,” But that’s exactly the point. The welfare systems do in fact help create social mobility.

The high taxes and transfers in Denmark create the kind of welfare state that damages peoples lives as evidenced by the the rates of alcoholism and drug abuse in Denmark.

I looked up recent statistics on how many liters of alcoholic beverages is being consumed between the US and Denmark. For the US its 9.8, and Denmark its 11.2, I wouldn’t call that an alcoholic problem. And if you look at what’s being drunk in Denmark its mostly beer and wine, whereas in the US its mostly hard liquor. Though in terms of death due to alcoholism its 3.2% for you and 5.6% for us.

I agree that’s bad. Thanks for highlighting that problem for me. I’m not sure its due to them being on welfare though. We have a drunk youth culture in Denmark. People get drunk here very early, and drink a lot more at an early age.

Its something I’ve been aware of for a long time, and talked to with the older generation. It wasn’t like that when my mom was little for instance. And its a bigger problem than in our neighboring countries, so it seems to be highly culturally specific.

As for drug abuse, we don’t have a problem with that. We do have many people who have tried marijuana, but that does not count as drug abuse. And since smoking marijuana is going to be legal soon, it won’t constitute an actual problem neither in the US nor in Denmark.

https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/msb_gsr_2014_3.pdf

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics
https://www.sst.dk/da/sygdom-og-behandling/~/media/C3ACA2467BEE41B49726532872563FFA.ashx

The argument that today’s Danish economic system is not self-sustaining but only made possible by the accumulated wealth of prior systems is worth analyzing.

That too is false on the face of it. What you’d basically be saying is that Denmark isn’t actually capable of sustaining welfare, but are using more money than they earn? That’s not the case. Our economy is growing, and there’s fewer people unemployed than there were a few decades ago.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I know you don’t see because you and your fellow countrymen are so used to living off the government dime

I don’t live off the government dime. In fact I’m a month away from paying off a student loan I have. Though the government did pay for most of my college education, for which I am grateful.

Maybe it’s because in Denmark you have very little opportunity.

On the contrary, we have more opportunity than in the US. Its a smaller country, so its easy to commute to and work places even if they’re far away. From where I’m sitting I can drive to any point in Denmark within three hours. I imagine that’s not quite possible in the US.

Furthermore, in Denmark all youths are given a free college education. Granted, its not an unlimited amount of vouchers. And its a system that’s being refined, but its easy to get educated for a field of expertise, which is what danish companies live off.

. I cant tell you or those coal miners how to get out of poverty, but I can tell them it is possible.

I’m glad you got yourself out of poverty. That’s a divine blessing on you and testimony to your ability. But if you can’t tell those coal miners how to do it, then you can’t tell them its possible. That’s what I asked you to argue for, and I don’t believe its an unfair challenge. That you can’t show a good case for something they can do, is actually an argument against your position.

Your personal testimony can’t be used as a general case. Its a beautiful sunshine story (as we call it in Denmark) though.

But you insist the company must pay a “living wage”.

It is immoral to pay a worker anything other than a living wage. I’d even, considering Rerum Novarum and Catholic social teaching, consider it a sin to pay anything else.

Yes and compared to the US you tax them beyond what is fair.

On the contrary, you just admitted that the corporate tax is less than in your country. Running a business in Denmark is not harder than it is in the US.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Well that’s your opinion, but I highly doubt it.

Naturally. In fact, that’s true of most posts on this forum, when they aren’t citing verifiable facts. I too have my own military friends. The EU doesn’t have a coalition army, but its been working towards it for a long time. Its military budget is significantly low, and you won’t have me disagreeing its too low.

However, remember, that there was a time when the combined military forces of all the states in the US was less than what the British could put up. It wasn’t until a time after World War I, that the US started building up the military machine its become, and not until Reagan and the Cold War where it became as big as it is today.

I think a European Coalition is an inevitability. But it might take a European “Pearl Harbor” before it really happens.

Well I don’t think they minded us warmongering Americans when we died and saved them at Normandy.

It was the Russians who saved Denmark, and arrived here first.

That is ridiculous my friend.

On the contrary, we do buy most of our military hardware from you guys. Nothing I said is false. You’re getting paid, in fact, as I said, we even agreed to have you guys do the repairs. Similarly we’ve cooporated with the US military for a military base on Greenland as well as the collaboration on the Thule base.

We even allowed you to house nuclear weapons on our territories, and looked the other way when you’ve had accidents with them. In terms of mutual friendship we’ve also looked the other way, when a base of yours on Greenland with a functional nuclear power plant, and a lot of industrial and chemical waste was left behind without any clean up and we’ve agreed to do it for you.

We’ve also participated with you in pretty much any war you’ve started since you were attacked in 9/11 because you are our ally.

I will agree with you though that the danish military budget needs to be increased. But the idea that we aren’t paying you, or supporting you just isn’t true.

 

[o_mlly]

On the contrary, not all conservatives in the US would consider the above capitalism at all. Take for instance @Dracarys in this same thread “You do see that “capitalism with government oversight” is a non sequitur.”

No country practice laissez-faire capitalism today.

But I’ve come to understand - mostly because Catholic Answers is a very US-centric forum - that few people here see it like that.

More than you may think. Stay on the forum, they’ll show up.

I looked up recent statistics on how many liters of alcoholic beverages is being consumed between the US and Denmark. For the US its 9.8, and Denmark its 11.2, I wouldn’t call that an alcoholic problem.

Other research shows that the alcohol problem is real.

The number of persons with alcohol problems in the Danish population - PubMed

The number of heavy drinkers in the Danish population and the number of people with harmful alcohol use is considerably higher than earlier prevalence estimates. The number of dependent drinkers is similar to earlier estimates.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Alcohol and icy roads explain why many drive Saabs and Volvos, the tanks of autos.

if you look at what’s being drunk in Denmark its mostly beer and wine, whereas in the US its mostly hard liquor.

The study appears to be based on liters of pure alcohol consumed equating the % vol of the different beverages.

That too is false on the face of it. What you’d basically be saying is that Denmark isn’t actually capable of sustaining welfare, but are using more money than they earn? That’s not the case. Our economy is growing, and there’s fewer people unemployed than there were a few decades ago.

While it may be false, it is not so on the “face of it.” As I wrote, the claim is worthy of further analysis. For instance, if the Danish tax revenues generate significantly from investment income (dividends, interest, capital gains) then one could claim that prior accumulated wealth is fueling the transfers disproportionately. I don’t know but if I were a Danish policy maker I would study the claim.

 

[leonhardprintz]

No country practice laissez-faire capitalism today.

When conservatives agree with each other on what constitutes capitalism and what constitutes socialism, then do come back to me.

Other research shows that the alcohol problem is real.

I’m not sure it does, or if it does, its a “problem” of the west. While the study you cite shows that 20% of danes are heavy drinkers, a similar study conducted in the US found that 26% of the US are heavy drinkers.

" Prevalence of Binge Drinking and Heavy Alcohol Use: In 2015, 26.9 percent of people ages 18 or older reported that they engaged in binge drinking in the past month; 7.0 percent reported that they engaged in heavy alcohol use in the past month.2 (See “Definitions” box for definitions of binge drinking and heavy alcohol use.)"

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Of course it depends on the exact social construction that is used for whether a person is classified as a heavy drinker or not.

Measured in terms of death due to alcoholism I did show that there’s a statistical higher rate in Denmark. In fact I thanked you for pointing it out (did you miss that?), but I do think its due to cultural differences and not due to our economy. Our youth get very drunk in comparison to neighboring countries with similar welfare policies.

The study appears to be based on liters of pure alcohol consumed equating the % vol of the different beverages.

Granted I agree. Danes consume 14% more alcohol than people in the US, when measured in terms of pure alcohol.

While it may be false, it is not so on the “face of it.”

You said it was unsustainable. In that sense it would seem you could only mean it in terms of revenue we were burning up, in that we couldn’t go on doing it forever. That would mean that we’d have stockpile of money, or value, or that we were printing money and devaluing our currency, or taking out progressively larger loans (like the US).

That would mean either a huge inflation, or an objectively measurable growth in terms of national debt. Things that are easily verifiable.

None of that is the case. So what exactly are you referring to?

 

[leonhardprintz]

Does leonhardprintz live in Denmark?

Yup.

A few years ago I listened to an NPR broadcast about Denmark that described the benefits that citizens are entitled to from their government (through taxes), but…the broadcast made it clear that the culture of Denmark includes a strong work ethic–people who receive government aid are expected to work at something (unless they are infirm or disabled in some way). And the people who receive aid expect to work–the Denmark citizens don’t expect to receive a handout, just a hand-up.

Is this true?

I’d say so yes. You aren’t entitled to welfare if you don’t apply for jobs. The only exception would be if you’re old, ill or handicapped in some way that prevents you from working.

 

[o_mlly]

When conservatives agree with each other on what constitutes capitalism and what constitutes socialism, then do come back to me.

When socialists agree with each other on what constitutes capitalism and what constitutes socialism, then do come back to me.

You said it was unsustainable. In that sense it would seem you could only mean it in terms of revenue we were burning up, in that we couldn’t go on doing it forever. That would mean that we’d have stockpile of money, or value, or that we were printing money and devaluing our currency, or taking out progressively larger loans (like the US).

That would mean either a huge inflation, or an objectively measurable growth in terms of national debt. Things that are easily verifiable.

None of that is the case. So what exactly are you referring to?

I didn’t say transfer or tax rates were unsustainable. Only that such a claim, I think, should be analyzed by policy makers in Denmark, of which, I am not one. If and when Denmark experiences inflation and/or deficit spending, it may be too late.

I do note as a casual observer that Denmark obtains 53% of its tax revenue from income, profits and capital gains. That puts Denmark at number 1 in the OECD which averages only 24% of its revenues from the same sources. The percentage is down 2 points from the prior year. Not a reason for worry but a concern for analysis. Capital is mobile and often seeks shelter when it can do so legally. If proximate neighbors only tax at an average of 24% capital may find a reason to move on.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/revenue-statistics-denmark.pdf

 

[Pattylt]

This is still an interesting thread!

One issue with our poor in coal country is that, I think, there are two types of poor…those that are somewhat content to live on the government dime and those that really want to get out of poverty and are really trapped. While there may be government programs to help somewhat, they fall far short. Having a house you can’t sell or being a renter that sucks so much of any money you do have traps many into their current location. There is no money to move and set up a new location if you don’t have down payments or deposits. Plus, there only support network is family in the same location or situation.

They have no transferable skills and training in any other takes some amount of money/time they may not have. A low paying job leaves nothing over for any type of real savings. The only jobs available are low paying.

Buying fixer uppers takes money to start with. The old story that you have to have money to make money is very evident here. What I fail to hear is how these types of poor can get out of it.

Those that just want to live off government need to be viewed as a different type of poor and I have no problem with some get tough type programs for them. I just want to be sure we aren’t classifying all of them in the same category.

What I don’t know is what will work for the deserving poor and what will work for the lazy poor and how to keep them separate. I also don’t know the percentages of each.

 

[Peeps]

Although there are people on welfare in the U.S. who have run out of other options, there are also people who have learned to milk the system.

My dad had one property, a three-bedroom house in a nice section of the city, that was registered with the government. He received a fairly nice monthly payment from the government for his rent (above what he would have charged for a paying tenant), and also another monthly payment, more than adequate, intended for maintenance of the house.

The tenant was a single woman with a couple of older children. The government allowed her to live in the house (rent-free) as long as she was either working or in school. So each semester, she enrolled in our local community college in a class, paid the reasonable tuition, never attended the class, and then at the “Drop Date” (about six weeks after the start of the semester), she would drop the class. She didn’t receive all of her tuition payment back, but she got some of it.

For the rest of the semester, she lived in the house having a great time–lots of parties! And no job. No work, other than keeping the house clean and the yard nice.

And every semester for four years, she did the same thing.

So this woman lived in a very nice house for four years without paying for it, and her only expense was a fairly small tuition payment.

My dad didn’t turn her in because she kept the house and yard in good shape, and he wanted her children to have a good place to live in a safe neighborhood. And he got his money from the government.

This is just one way that people in the U.S. learn to work the system. There are lots of other ways.

As Christians, we don’t want to assume that all the poor are doing this. But we also can’t just say, “Well, it’s OK, better to help a cheat than let them starve.” No, that’s not OK. For one thing, it’s not truly “helping” the slacker to better themselves and learn to become a productive citizen. For another thing, hard-working taxpayers provided the money to pay for the slacker’s benefits, and I think it’s right and fair and “Christian” that they expect that their tax money will be spent wisely. Finally, when slackers get away with it, the amount of money available to help the truly needy is decreased.

If someone is able to drive to a college and apply, and then come home and clean and do yardwork and take care of teenagers–they have some marketable skills and should look for jobs.

 

[Theo520]

Honestly I thought it was a troll. I did wonder if that’s what he meant, but it’s clearly not what he typed so I was legitimately confused.

Honestly, who’s being the troll?

 

[leonhardprintz]

I do note as a casual observer that Denmark obtains 53% of its tax revenue from income, profits and capital gains.

I think you’re misreading that link.

The number you’re citing is the “Taxes on personal income, profits and gains”. The tax on “Corporate income and gains” is actually only a meagre 6% which is lower than average compared to other OECD countries that average 9%, or the US who have an even higher corporate income tax.

 

[leonhardprintz]

This is just one way that people in the U.S. learn to work the system. There are lots of other ways.

As Christians, we don’t want to assume that all the poor are doing this.

I’d agree. I’d also agree that this woman should have received a stern warning about the consequences of failing to apply for jobs. But one recurring theme in Catholic moral discussions is that you can’t make a general rule from an exception.

Something specific should be done here. No one would disagree with that, but I don’t believe her case invalidates the welfare system.

 

[Peeps]

Of course the case doesn’t invalidate the welfare system. But there are lots of “welfare cheating situations” that many of us have seen with our own eyes. And although it doesn’t invalidate the welfare system, it demonstrates the needs to fix the system that allows people to milk it.

One of the biggest problems we have is defining “able-bodied and able to work.” It’s even worse nowadays, as people claim that they are “stressed” and therefore cannot handle a job. Stress is definitely one manifestation of mental and emotional illness or disturbance, but…what exactly is stress? After President Trump won the election, there were stories on television news (network, not FOX!) about college students who required “safe rooms” and “comfort animals” to be able to function!! Is this even legitimate?!

Both of my daughters are in their mid-30s, and both work with young people (one as a coach, a job that she does in addition to her full-time physical therapy job in a hospital). The other works as an adjunct professor (in addition to her other gigs in theater and event planning.).

Both of them tell me that the young people are totally unprepared to function as adults. Many cannot handle the slightest upset to their plans, and actually require medication or some other kind of intervention or accomodations. Many of them have never learned to drive (cannot handle the pressure!). Many have various addictions, especially gaming on their phones. Many have no hobbies other than social media, and they get all their news from social media, and have no idea what is happening in their own communities. They don’t volunteer. They don’t have jobs. They are barely getting through school.

So different than when my daughters were growing up in the 1980s and 1990s! And really different than when my husband and I were growing up!

So I fear that in the next decade we’'ll see many more young people on public aid with some kind of medical diagnosis related to “stress disorder.”

Sigh.

 

[o_mlly]

I think you’re misreading that link.

The number you’re citing is the “Taxes on personal income, profits and gains”. The tax on “Corporate income and gains” is actually only a meagre 6% which is lower than average compared to other OECD countries that average 9%, or the US who have an even higher corporate income tax.

I interpreted the graph correctly. Personal capital, like corporate capital, is mobile. Unless Denmark has extraordinarily stringent controls on capital movements out of Denmark, the 53% to 24% differential in tax revenues could motivate moveable capital to move out (cp).

 

[Regular_Atheist]

What do you mean? I’m not a troll, I’ve been posting on this forum consistently for years now.

 

[Theo520]

I’ve been posting on this forum consistently for years now.

? What does that have to do with anything. It only speaks to experience.