What wage is just?

[o_mlly]

I don’t think this is realistic story. Automation has happened regardless of minimum wage laws, which at any rate in the US is at a miniscule 7.5$, and even at such a low level it did not prevent automation.

In the real world of the risky business of product development, the first rule is do not invent anything that no one will buy. No one would buy a machine that replaces labor unless that machine would be less expensive than the cost of the labor that would be displaced.

But as the minimum wage rises, the calculus justifying such machine invention projects improves in a direct correlation. For instance, the widget that I could invent that could displace $10/hr labor never gets invented at labor rates of $7.50/hr. But if the minimum wage goes to $15/hr, the project gets a green light.

 

[o_mlly]

The idea that people always have choices in capitalist systems is nonsensical on the face of it.

Not true. “On the face of it” normally means self-evident. But to the contrary of your claim, the free-enterprise private property economic systems provide more free choice than any other. What other system has more?

 

[leonhardprintz]

Not true. “On the face of it” normally means self-evident. But to the contrary of your claim, the free-enterprise private property economic systems provide more free choice than any other. What other system has more?

Capitalism with governmental oversight and a broad welfare plan for those in need. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland have had basically that going for the past three generations, and those economies are strong and are growing well.

I am not advocating for abolishment of capitalism here. Just acknowledging some of its undeniable problems.

For instance, the widget that I could invent that could displace $10/hr labor never gets invented at labor rates of $7.50/hr.

That is of course true. If you allow factories to lower the salary of workers to the point where the pay becomes unlivable, then of course you can be cheaper than automation. And there are still individual situations where automation is too expensive. For instance Tesla tried to make their plant 100% automated from start to finish, but the technology wasn’t ready for some of the stages of car manufacture.

However it is the case that all of truck drivers will be displaced in the next decade. There’s also no discussion that we don’t need anywhere nearly as many farm hands thanks to automation.

That pattern of displacement of people from menial labor, to skilled labor is not new, and its not unwelcome.

However when a giant mine closes down, or a huge factory, thousands of people are suddenly left with no income. Some of those have the stores means to pick up, move somewhere else, and start anew. Others don’t.

I believe the latter should be provided assistance to enter a new industry.

 

[Dracarys]

However again, without looking at specific situations, any discussion about what’s easy or hard for people to do is meaningless.

It’s not meaningless, and just because something is hard does not mean it’s impossible. It’s always easier to say “poor me” than to do something positive to overcome a bad situation.

It is also not the job of employers to be charities. Companies want to profit. If you can’t add something to that goal you should not get paid. Too many people think that they deserve handouts simply because they exist.

 

[leonhardprintz]

It’s not meaningless,

Simple stating a negation doesn’t constitute an answer. I’ve provided some examples for you to chew over, and I haven’t been told what special options they have. I also provided testimonial from someone I know who lived in those conditions.

It’s always easier to say “poor me”…

Again with the good ol’ right-wing poor shaming. You honestly believe that all people who don’t have a job in the areas where the coal mines closed down in the US, don’t have a job simply because they feel sorry for themselves?

Too many people think that they deserve handouts simply because they exist.

Depends on for what. To get luxuries. Of course not. To live, survive, or to have the opportunity to pursue a realistic chance for happiness. Yes, I do believe they should be entitled to that. Especially if its money needed to survive.

"We all deserve the world,
Harvest and seed
Hunger and poverty
Are born of greed

Don’t turn your face away
From needs of others
Reach out a helping hand
To all your brothers"

• For the Youth, Nordahl Grieg, 1936

 

[JimG]

However it is the case that all of truck drivers will be displaced in the next decade

I doubt that can happen that soon. As of now there is a serious shortage of truck drivers. Self driving trucks may be produced, but I suspect that even with self-driving trucks, the industry will require a driver behind the wheel.

Will the Trucker Shortage Continue ? | TruckDriversSalary.com

The U.S. is facing an unprecedented trucker shortage. According to the American Trucking Associations, America will be short 175,000 drivers by 2026. Even

www.truckdriverssalary.com

 

[leonhardprintz]

I suspect that even with self-driving trucks, the industry will require a driver behind the wheel.

Wishful thinking. A driver is expensive. A computer isn’t. A computer improves itself with each update, and it won’t be long before they’re considered safe enough to drive on the roads. And the problem of driving on the roads is a solved problem, all that’s left is weeding out edge cases.

Taking a job as a trucker should be considered a short term position. Not a career.

 

[JimG]

Taking nearly any job is a short term proposition. It’s better to earn high pay as a trucker for ten years than to do nothing for ten years.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Taking nearly any job is a short term proposition. It’s better to earn high pay as a trucker for ten years than to do nothing for ten years.

True, but the writing is on the wall for that kind of job.

 

[o_mlly]

Capitalism with governmental oversight and a broad welfare plan for those in need. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland have had basically that going for the past three generations, and those economies are strong and are growing well.

The snapshot reveals far less than the movie. In the movie, the U.S. economy does very well.

I am not advocating for abolishment of capitalism here. Just acknowledging some of its undeniable problems.

The merely good is often wrongly portrayed as the enemy of the perfect. Capitalism as “free enterprise - private property - rule of law economy” may not be perfect but it is better than any other system ever tried in increasing the goods and services available to its citizens.

 

[JimG]

True, but the writing is on the wall for that kind of job.

The handwwriting may be on the wall, but in the meantime, per the linked article America will be short 175,000 drivers by 2026. "

 

[leonhardprintz]

leonhard:

Capitalism with governmental oversight and a broad welfare plan for those in need. Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland have had basically that going for the past three generations, and those economies are strong and are growing well.

The snapshot reveals far less than the movie. In the movie, the U.S. economy does very well.

What do you mean with this sentence? I never said the US economy is doing poorly. In fact it doesn’t even appear to address the quote its addressing.

The merely good is often wrongly portrayed as the enemy of the perfect. Capitalism as “free enterprise - private property - rule of law economy” may not be perfect but it is better than any other system ever tried in increasing the goods and services available to its citizens.

I disagree, the Scandinavian model, which is free market capitalism, with government oversight, with comprehensive welfare and collective bargaining, is a viable alternative. At the very least a proof of principle.

The social mobility in Denmark is significantly higher than in the US.

 

[Dracarys]

You honestly believe that all people who don’t have a job in the areas where the coal mines closed down in the US, don’t have a job simply because they feel sorry for themselves?

As I said above unemployment is at an all time low. If you have to move to get a better job do it. We don’t live in the middle ages anymore where people were confined to a class. We don’t live our lives within three miles of our village. If it’s bad where you are; leave.

Also, as I have said, the company you work for is not a charity. Why is it that leftist always see business owners as mean and rich? I’ve had clients who were the owners of the company skip paying themselves so they could meet payroll.

 

[Dracarys]

I disagree, the Scandinavian model, which is free market capitalism, with government oversight, with comprehensive welfare and collective bargaining, is a viable alternative. At the very least a proof of princip

Denmark is s small country without much diversity. The opportunities in the US to become truly wealthy still are the best in the world.

I always wonder how welfare states like yours would fare if they had to pay their own way all these years by having things like a strong military. Let’s be honest, the world all knows the US will support them in a conflict with a world power. What would happen if we started to charge a fair price to be your friend?

 

[Dracarys]

The social mobility in Denmark is significantly higher than in the US

Sure if you tax your more successful citizens enough, and you don’t have to field a large military your average citizen will enjoy a comfortable life.

 

[Peeps]

And the pay is fantastic! My brother has been a certified welder since 1979. He spent two years in a trade school and paid a very reasonable fee for the education, and he had a very hard time finding a job as 1980 was the Reagan Recession (25% unemployment in our town, tied with Flint, Michigan). He finally found a job with one of the greatest industrialists in our city’s history–a true gentlemen who has graciously given millions to the city in the form of arts venues and pieces. in 2019, my brother still works at that company and loves it and makes more money than I do working in a hospital at a job that required me to earn a Bachelor’s Degree!

 

[leonhardprintz]

If you have to move to get a better job do it. … If it’s bad where you are; leave.

You’re repeating yourself now, and not addressing what I’m saying. Simply calling it “more excuses”, and offering comments about them needing to stop playing Fortnite, doesn’t address what I said about people in those circumstances.

I don’t see that they’re being offered any good means of moving when they’re deep in debt, and living day to day off welfare. Where are they going to get the money for a relocation from?

Also, as I have said, the company you work for is not a charity.

I have never said anything about the company acting as a charity in this thread. At best I’ve discussed what a living wage consists of.

Why is it that leftist always see business owners as mean and rich?

I have no idea what person you’re addressing. I haven’t said anything like that.

Denmark is s small country without much diversity. The opportunities in the US to become truly wealthy still are the best in the world.

The sentence “truly wealthy” is highly subjective. But at any rate we’ve got billionaires in Denmark as well, at a not too dissimilar rate. We also have the largest shipping company in the world Maersk.

I always wonder how welfare states like yours would fare if they had to pay their own way all these years by having things like a strong military.

I agree we pay obscene little, but if we tripled our annual military budget and formed a military coalition with the EU, we’d easily be able to face off Russia or China. I’d honestly like to see that, though I think it’ll take a culture shock. Kinda like how 9/11 or Pearl Harbor jump started you guys.

We could do that without it ruining our welfare system. I’ve looked at the budgets. Its a matter of our government having gotten into a bit of a pacifist groove ever since we lost to Germany three times in a row (1864, WWI and WWII).

What would happen if we started to charge a fair price to be your friend?

You already do.

All of our military planes and tanks are bought from you guys. We are allies. And in those same contracts it was stipulated that Denmark is not allowed to do their own repairs. Our F-35’s have to be flown to Florida for repairs or any retrofitting needed.

We’re not even allowed the source code. Though thankfully through significant effort its been ruled out that the US have back doors of certain types in the software, that would allow them to take control of the plane, or shut down the engines. Etc…

 

[o_mlly]

I disagree, the Scandinavian model, which is free market capitalism, with government oversight, with comprehensive welfare and collective bargaining, is a viable alternative.

The sentence above should have begun, “I agree” as the description is not an alternative but an identity.

The social mobility in Denmark is significantly higher than in the US.

Social mobility in Denmark and the U.S. seem to be remarkably similar when looking exclusively at wages—that is, before including taxes and transfers.

The high taxes and transfers in Denmark create the kind of welfare state that damages peoples lives as evidenced by the the rates of alcoholism and drug abuse in Denmark. A system which incentivizes people to be cared for rather than to care for themselves damages the human spirit. The argument that today’s Danish economic system is not self-sustaining but only made possible by the accumulated wealth of prior systems is worth analyzing.

 

[Dracarys]

I don’t see that they’re being offered any good means of moving when they’re deep in debt, and living day to day off welfare. Where are they going to get the money for a relocation from?

I know you don’t see because you and your fellow countrymen are so used to living off the government dime that you don’t see any other way. If I am repeating myself it’s because you simply don’t understand how determination and perseverance can get you off welfare. Maybe it’s because in Denmark you have very little opportunity. I am not patting myself on the back, but in my situation I was not happy with the amount accumulating in my retirement account so I bought several houses for cheap, fixed them up, and now I have a large portfolio of rental properties that give me regular cash flow. Was that easy? NO my wife and I had to learn off youtube how to repair the houses. We had to find homes in the so called ‘off market’ where they were cheaper. Sometimes we worked on houses all night so we could get a tenant in as soon as possible.

For some reason you see these laid off coal miners you keep bringing up as hopelessly stymied and helpless. Here in America you can get student loans, take classes online, network with people to get better positions, etc. You seem like a smart guy, but the fact that you can’t comprehend how those coal miners can improve their situation makes me think you are either locked into a leftist mindset, or you just lack experience. I cant tell you or those coal miners how to get out of poverty, but I can tell them it is possible. If you don’t get that I can’t help you . Maybe you are just immature.

I have never said anything about the company acting as a charity in this thread. At best I’ve discussed what a living wage consists of.

But you insist the company must pay a “living wage”. I am trying to tell you that these companies pay what they can afford, and if the workers don’t like it they can go elsewhere. With unemployment at an all time low it is fairly easy to get a job.

The sentence “truly wealthy” is highly subjective. But at any rate we’ve got billionaires in Denmark as well, at a not too dissimilar rate. We also have the largest shipping company in the world Maersk.

Yes and compared to the US you tax them beyond what is fair. If I had a company there I would leave.

See this: Denmark Personal Income Tax Rate | 1995-2021 Data | 2022-2023 Forecast | Historical

Although Ill give you that your corporate tax rate is less than ours. Our government engages in double taxation of dividends and we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. Of course all that means is the companies pass that on to the consumers.

 

[Dracarys]

I agree we pay obscene little, but if we tripled our annual military budget and formed a military coalition with the EU, we’d easily be able to face off Russia or China. I’d honestly like to see that, though I think it’ll take a culture shock.

Well that’s your opinion, but I highly doubt it. I think without the US either Russia or China would run you guys over like Hitler did. You would have too many chiefs, layers of command, and have to get the approval of Brussels to do anything. Face it, the US is NATO and without us you would flounder. I am not trying to be superior, but I talked to a friend of mine who spent most of his life in the military to confirm and he just laughed at your theory. Sorry.

I agree that you pay obscenely little for the help you get from the US. If you paid your fair share you would quickly find that you could no longer afford the welfare system you now enjoy.

We could do that without it ruining our welfare system. I’ve looked at the budgets. Its a matter of our government having gotten into a bit of a pacifist groove ever since we lost to Germany three times in a row (

Sure, and frankly it because over the years you in Europe have become spoiled. France routinely criticizes the US as "warmongers’, “gun obsessed” etc. Well I don’t think they minded us warmongering Americans when we died and saved them at Normandy.

You already do

That is ridiculous my friend. Fortunately President Trump has at least said he would start to make all of you pay your fair share. That is way better than Obama who went around kissing all of your collective behinds and apologizing for the United States. He is trully the worst president we have ever had.