What Was Wrong With The Jews?

[Reuben_J]

Hi

The Chosen People they were if they obeyed GodAllahYHWH, if they disobey Him then they became unchosen themselves and entitled for the wrath of GodAllahYHWH. The Quran clarifies this point:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma’idah
[5:13] And indeed Allah did take a covenant from the Children of Israel; and We raised among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, ‘Surely, I am with you, if you observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, and believe in My Messengers and support them, and lend to Allah a goodly loan, I will remove your evils from you and admit you into Gardens beneath which streams flow. But whoso from among you disbelieves thereafter does indeed stray away from the right path.’
[5:14] So, because of their breaking of the covenant, We have cursed them and have hardened their hearts. They pervert the words from their proper places and have forgotten a good part of that with which they were exhorted. And thou wilt not cease to discover treachery on their part, except a few of them. So pardon them and show forbearance. Surely Allah loves those who do good to others.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=5&verse=10

Thanks

Hi. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

What about the Muslims? How do you explain the concept of sins? Once a Muslim and believing, are you always assured of paradise no matter what sin you commit on earth?

I am alarmed, if you don’t mind, why in 15:4 that God hardened their hearts? I am not sure if there is similar verse in the Bible but normally God did not harden the hearts of sinners. They hardened their own hearts, yes. I mean they became stubborn and refused to change even after listening to the words of God through the prophets.

 

[Kaninchen]

If you read the original post, the OP was talking about how God dealt with his chosen people and applying it to how he deals with us. This was not Jew bashing.

Well, I’d read the original post, noted the original poster and took into account how threads like this develop. Since we’ve had a couple of torrid weeks and there are a limited number of us here . . .

 

[Reuben_J]

If you are gonna ask “what is wrong with the Jews”, then you gotta ask equally, “what is wrong with the gentiles”.

Because the Jews were in the scripture. They are examples of what sin can do to the seemingly secure position that they had. They were destroyed. What does this tell us as Christians? Should we tread the wicked steps of this people of God?

The gentiles were not as privileged as the Jews. They were the dogs who only ate the left-overs from the master.

The fall of Israel
2Kkg
7 All this took place because the Israelites had sinned against the LORD their God, …
13 The LORD warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: “Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.”
14 But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, “Do not do as they do,” and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.
17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
18 So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from his presence.

The fall of Judah
2kg 24
2 The LORD sent Babylonian, Aramean, Moabite and Ammonite raiders against him. He sent them to destroy Judah, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by his servants the prophets. 3 Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, 4 including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. …

19 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, just as Jehoiakim had done. 20 It was because of the LORD’s anger that all this happened to Jerusalem and Judah, and in the end he thrust them from his presence.

The second fall of Jerusalem
Mt 23
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "

In AD 70Jerusalem was razed to the ground, its people were killed and massacred and the temple destroyed. The remnant were dispersed in diaspora.

The question is, why did God allow this to happen? What was wrong with the Jews? I can only say – it was sin. Lesson that Christians today can learn from. This thread will help somehow if we can encourage each other not to repeat the folly of the Jews.

BTW, there were no Jews at the time of Noah.

The people then were people of the covenant. They were not spared the wrath of God because of sin.

BTW, when did the Jews officially existed?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

BTW, when did the Jews officially existed?

With Moses out of Egypt, Israelites and non-Israelites together.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

What about the Muslims? How do you explain the concept of sins? Once a Muslim and believing, are you always assured of paradise no matter what sin you commit on earth?

I am alarmed, if you don’t mind, why in 15:4 that God hardened their hearts? I am not sure if there is similar verse in the Bible but normally God did not harden the hearts of sinners. They hardened their own hearts, yes. I mean they became stubborn and refused to change even after listening to the words of God through the prophets.

[2:63] Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=61

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

What about the Muslims? How do you explain the concept of sins? Once a Muslim and believing, are you always assured of paradise no matter what sin you commit on earth?

I am alarmed, if you don’t mind, why in 15:4 that God hardened their hearts? I am not sure if there is similar verse in the Bible but normally God did not harden the hearts of sinners. They hardened their own hearts, yes. I mean they became stubborn and refused to change even after listening to the words of God through the prophets.

Hi

There is no birhtright heaven for anybody:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah
[2:63] Surely, those who believe (the Muslims) and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=61

A sinner has to repent for the sin to GodAllahYHWH and promise not to sin again, GodAllahYHWH is merciful, he could forgive.

Thanks

 

[Valke2]

Rather than get invovled in anything of substance in yet another thread started by someone who has a lot of issues with people who happen to be Jewish, I’ll just say the following:

I don’t think the Flood and Noah can be used as an example of how Jews have suffered. Ruben, if you want to continue on your campaign of anti-semetism, you should probably limit your zones of attack to things like ‘what the jews did to deserve genocide.’
Stick to the classics.

 

[Reuben_J]

With Moses out of Egypt, Israelites and non-Israelites together.

Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Ok noted. My bad.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Despite being God’s chosen people they suffered untold proportion of destruction as a nation in their History.

Thats what they get for inventing Monotheism & Holy War…and for the genocide of the Amalekites.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

There is no birhtright heaven for anybody:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah
[2:63] Surely, those who believe (the Muslims) and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=2&verse=61

A sinner has to repent for the sin to GodAllahYHWH and promise not to sin again, GodAllahYHWH is merciful, he could forgive.

Thanks

OK I figure.

However, I was asking, why in Surah 5:14 Allah hardened the hearts of covenant breakers. How could they repent if their hearts were purposely hardened ?

[5:14] So, because of their breaking of the covenant, We have cursed them and have hardened their hearts.

Don’t you think that Allah was being unfair by not giving them a chance during their lifetime to repent should they ever chose that direction?

In the Bible that I quoted God asked them to come back to him after they sinned. Only after their repeated refusal due to their stubbornness did God punished them by delivering them to their enemies.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

However, I was asking, why in Surah 5:14 Allah hardened the hearts of covenant breakers. How could they repent if their hearts were purposely hardened ?

God did the same to Pharaoh though.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

No, you have not.

I can understand that this conversation can degenerate into something else perhaps because the topic is rather wide. So I can understand why it takes its own direction.

I am more interested though in what both you and and Claire have said. I thought Jesus had given us the grace to be saved but it does not prevent us sinning if we choose to. And sin would lead to our own destrcution.

What worry me though we can be complacent, and eventually succumbed to our individual weaknesses and enter into sins and become unsaved. The Jewish tragedies are good examples in the scripture. When they sinned (broke the covenant) they suffered the wrath of God and the consequence were unimaginable. The whole nation wiped out and the remnants were subjected to slavery. The Psalm about the Hebrews singing their Yahweh’s song to the Babylonians by the river of the Babylon always prick my heart.

I am wondering today whether what I am saying here have anything to do with the belief that once saved we are always saved. The ancients people of God did not but would it be any different to us Christians?

Another thing, why is that we have this tendency to sin (disobedient to God’s commandments) despite knowing that sins do not bring anything good at all?

Thanks. God bless.

I think you could look at the parable of the prodigal son. He took his inheritance and wasted it but repented and came home. And his father welcomed him. Our inheritance is the grace we received at baptism. Catholics call it sanctifying grace, the presence of God’s on life in us. Leaving the father and wasting the inheritance is mortal sin, turning against God and freely choosing serious sin. By returning home, which indicates repentance, God welcomes us back and restores us to grace.

Some people believe that initial grace (God’s life in us, our inheritance as Christians) is permanent and can never be lost. However, in this parable it was necessary that the son repent and return to his father to be forgiven. If he had not, he would have died with the pigs. He would still have been his father’s son but he would not have been living in his father’s home.

I think those who believe in once saved, always saved, think that to believe otherwise is to doubt God’s power to keep those who have once turned to Him. Not true. With the initial saving grace, we have all that we need to live God’s life. However, our wills are weakened by the effects of original sin (called concupicence, I think I misspelled that). Paul calls this ‘the flesh’ or ‘the old man’. He tells us to put to death the flesh or make no provision for the flesh. So, without prayer and living as the bible and church teaches, it is easy to begin sinning again and to continue until our consciences are damaged and we fall into serious sin.

God continues to call us to repent and turn back to Him. Until the instant of death, we have that choice. But if we don’t turn back to Him before we die, we could end up in hell. He honors our free will that much. He can save all who call on Him. But if we are in sin and refuse to call on Him that is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

God permitted disasters to fall on the Jews to bring them to turn back to him. They did, and He continued to be faithful to His covenant with Him. From a Christian viewpoint, the coming of Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise of God’s covenant with Israel. Many of the Jews entered into the new covenant which was sealed with Christ’s blood. This covenant was open to all people, not just Jews. It is written, ‘salvation is from the Jews’. We all all blessed by their faithfulness to the old covenant.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

What’s wrong? Well they leave something out of everything.

Have you ever had the kosher wine it is missing something.

The pickles? Missing garlic etc.

I tried to order a turkey and swiss sandwich in a kosher deli, how embarrassing! No cheeseburgers either. But I love those delis.

 

[dessert]

Why do you say pork isn’t good for the body? Or perhaps more accurately, why do you believe pork isn’t good for the body? Just asking.

It’s too porky (fatty) but I know it has protein as a meat .
It upsets my stomach.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Why do you say pork isn’t good for the body? Or perhaps more accurately, why do you believe pork isn’t good for the body? Just asking.

It’s not good to eat animals that eat meat since you can’t be sure of what they’ve eaten. Some person with AIDS or other disease could die in the wild, then swine or rats or catfish could eat their bodies then if you eat them you would eat it too.

But animals like cattle, deer, and sheep won’t eat anything like that.

 

[dessert]

It’s not good to eat animals that eat meat since you can’t be sure of what they’ve eaten. Some person with AIDS or other disease could die in the wild, then swine or rats or catfish could eat their bodies then if you eat them you would eat it too.

But animals like cattle, deer, and sheep won’t eat anything like that.

this is so true and gross, but i admit I have eaten pork but I try to avoid it or eat turkey bacon etc. My dh thinks I’m worry too much. He craves pork but his cholesteral is high too. I visited a farm with a friend years a go and she showed me what they eat and when we visited the barn there were a couple dead baby pigs in the trough because she said that just happens and she said don’t worry they will eat them. Ugh Scientiffically I suppose most meats are regulated but I still avoid it if I can.

 

[Namesake]

It’s too porky (fatty) but I know it has protein as a meat .
It upsets my stomach.

Many cuts of pork are quite lean. Pork loin roasts, center cut pork chops. Pork can be very low fat.

I thought maybe you had a general notion that pork was bad for people. It really isn’t, unless you are keeping kosher of course.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

this is so true and gross, but i admit I have eaten pork but I try to avoid it or eat turkey bacon etc. My dh thinks I’m worry too much. He craves pork but his cholesteral is high too. I visited a farm with a friend years a go and she showed me what they eat and when we visited the barn there were a couple dead baby pigs in the trough because she said that just happens and she said don’t worry they will eat them. Ugh Scientiffically I suppose most meats are regulated but I still avoid it if I can.

Maybe if pork was guaranteed grain fed it would be kosher, I don’t know.

 

[c659smith]

My biggest problem with Jews is not rejecting Jesus, but that they say atheists can validly be Jews.

So in theory one day every single Jew on the planet could be atheist while still parading around under the banner of God’s Chosen People. :harp:

That’s seriously messed up, and something only Jews can fix themselves. Otherwise, naughty naughty, shame, shame, all that.

Israel is the only democratic state in that part of the world . Are you condeming them for that?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Israel is the only democratic state in that part of the world . Are you condeming them for that?

This is about Messiah:

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This is about Antichrist:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.