What Was Wrong With The Jews?

[c659smith]

Because the Jews were in the scripture. They are examples of what sin can do to the seemingly secure position that they had. They were destroyed. What does this tell us as Christians? Should we tread the wicked steps of this people of God?

The gentiles were not as privileged as the Jews. They were the dogs who only ate the left-overs from the master.

The fall of Israel
2Kkg
7 All this took place because the Israelites had sinned against the LORD their God, …
13 The LORD warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: “Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets.”
14 But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, “Do not do as they do,” and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.
17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
18 So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from his presence.

The fall of Judah
2kg 24
2 The LORD sent Babylonian, Aramean, Moabite and Ammonite raiders against him. He sent them to destroy Judah, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by his servants the prophets. 3 Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, 4 including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive. …

19 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, just as Jehoiakim had done. 20 It was because of the LORD’s anger that all this happened to Jerusalem and Judah, and in the end he thrust them from his presence.

The second fall of Jerusalem
Mt 23
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ "

In AD 70Jerusalem was razed to the ground, its people were killed and massacred and the temple destroyed. The remnant were dispersed in diaspora.

The question is, why did God allow this to happen? What was wrong with the Jews? I can only say – it was sin. Lesson that Christians today can learn from. This thread will help somehow if we can encourage each other not to repeat the folly of the Jews.

The people then were people of the covenant. They were not spared the wrath of God because of sin.

BTW, when did the Jews officially existed?

The Jewish Religion started at the time of Abraham in Genesis.

This was also foretold in scripture by Daniel and by Christ stating He would destroy the Temple in 3 days and build it up in 3 days. When Christ died on the Cross and was ressurrected it began Jesus’s new Church and fore saw the beginning of the end for Jerusulem being a Jewish state controlled by the Romans.

Why are you referring to why did God let it happen. Again lets go back to basic cathechism . God made man in the Image and likeness of Himself and gave Man free will. The only time He has interceded was to destroy as far as the Bible is concerned. The Great Flood, Sodom and Gommorea, the Pharos and Egyptians first born., etc…
Can you name a time in the Old Testament when he intercede between man to man . He interceeded when it was Man to God.

 

[c659smith]

This is about Messiah:

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This is about Antichrist:

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Please explain to me how you translated Isaiah’s statement there into the Anti Christ. What I get is that the light (new Covemnant) shall be given to the Gentiles(christianity) and return Israel (the tribes) to Israel. Preserve = to defend.

Matthew never said who they were and and only there will be false prophets.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Please explain to me how you translated Isaiah’s statement there into the Anti Christ. What I get is that the light (new Covemnant) shall be given to the Gentiles(christianity) and return Israel (the tribes) to Israel. Preserve = to defend.

Matthew never said who they were and and only there will be false prophets.

Only Messiah is supposed to create Israel. If you are Christian, Messiah means Jesus.

Not some Zionist that hates Jesus.

A False Christ does miracles only Jesus is supposed to do.

 

[Genesis315]

Despite being God’s chosen people they suffered untold proportion of destruction as a nation in their History. The flood during Noah’s time, the destruction of the temple resulting in slavery in Babylon and the second destruction of the temple by the Romans. Each somehow was preceded by warnings and prophecies; and the exhortation for them to turn back to God.

Are not we all having the Jews in our hearts and that disobedience and disbelief could lead to our own destruction. I am exploring the idea that this is God’s own message that even as Christians it would not guarantee our salvation if we sin.

That’s exactly the point–except their calamities foreshadowed the true result of sin revealed fully by Christ–damnation.

 

[c659smith]

Maybe if pork was guaranteed grain fed it would be kosher, I don’t know.

Christ did not state the laws of the Jewish people were wrong only that they put those laws (man made ) before God was wrong.

The reason for those laws and most of them were heath reasons.

Pork tainted quickly no refrigeration.

Mixing dairy and meat caused cross food contaimination.

Salting meat before cooking kills many types of bacteria and is a preservative.

Sterilzing and washing , well that says enough as far as health

Circumcision was a health reason for even today because of increased chance of infections and desease.

Remember Jesus followed these Laws along with His Apostles --they were Jews.

Jesus did not place these laws though before people that were not Jewish and broke laws only that did not make sense.

It was years before Paul was able to convince the other 11 Apostles to accept the Gentiles that did not follow these laws.

 

[c659smith]

That’s exactly the point–except their calamities foreshadowed the true result of sin revealed fully by Christ–damnation.

The Jews never never laid a hand on Mary. Where does it state they Hate Jesus?

 

[c659smith]

Only Messiah is supposed to create Israel. If you are Christian, Messiah means Jesus.

Not some Zionist that hates Jesus.

A False Christ does miracles only Jesus is supposed to do.

Again who says Jews hate Jesus? I have never heard a Jewish scholar or Rabi say they hate Jesus.

oops so do you deny what Daniel prophet and what he wrote?

God made a covenant with the Jews and I believe He will stand by it just like God said He would not destroy the earth by water again,

Christ forgave the Jews on the Cross. “Father forgive them for they no not what they do.”

I think you need to say the “Our Father prayer”

 

[paidion]

Maybe if pork was guaranteed grain fed it would be kosher, I don’t know.

errr… it would also have to develop different feet, chew the cud, etc… in other words, not be a swine anymore…

shalom

 

[paarsurrey]

However, I was asking, why in Surah 5:14 Allah hardened the hearts of covenant breakers. How could they repent if their hearts were purposely hardened ?

[5:14] So, because of their breaking of the covenant, We have cursed them and have hardened their hearts.

Hi

The action is of the men ( started by them), the result is from GodAllahYHWH. Since the Jews persisted in harming and attempting murder of the ProphetsMessengers so the result came from God that their hearts became hardened. Had they not persisted with this, their hearts would have not been hardened. The fault is with them not with God.

If one does not know swimming and one jumps into a river and is drowned and his death occurs, the fault is with the person who jumped into the river, but the result of death is from God, He is not to be blamed.

Thanks

 

[Valke2]

errr… it would also have to develop different feet, chew the cud, etc… in other words, not be a swine anymore…

shalom

It’s feet are fine. It’s the cud chewing that needs improvement.

 

[Hastrman]

Again who says Jews hate Jesus? I have never heard a Jewish scholar or Rabi say they hate Jesus.

Maimonides always said “may his bones be ground into dust” whenever he mentioned Jesus (actually I think he stopped in his later works, when he’d decided Christians were legitimate monotheists, but still, that’s a rocky start to the career, there, Rebbe).

But he considered Christianity a genuinely false, deceptive religion–a heresy; I could see saying “may his bones be ground into dust” about Manes or Arius or Pelagius, can’t you?

Nicholas of Myrna (Santa Claus) once punched Arius in the face, or so they say.

Line from a cool Christmas special: I put Arius out with one punch, kid, and I can do you too. You’re on the naughty list and that’s that.

 

[c659smith]

Maimonides always said “may his bones be ground into dust” whenever he mentioned Jesus (actually I think he stopped in his later works, when he’d decided Christians were legitimate monotheists, but still, that’s a rocky start to the career, there, Rebbe).

But he considered Christianity a genuinely false, deceptive religion–a heresy; I could see saying “may his bones be ground into dust” about Manes or Arius or Pelagius, can’t you?

Nicholas of Myrna (Santa Claus) once punched Arius in the face, or so they say.

Line from a cool Christmas special: I put Arius out with one punch, kid, and I can do you too. You’re on the naughty list and that’s that.

what are you talking about?

forgive us our trespassers as we forgive those who trespass aganist us.

If you do not forgive than God will not forgive you stop holding in hate.

 

[Hastrman]

what are you talking about?

forgive us our trespassers as we forgive those who trespass aganist us.

If you do not forgive than God will not forgive you stop holding in hate.

Um…obviously, at least to an English speaker, I was saying, “I could sympathize with the emotion.”

Kindly stop treating me like an idiot–as for instance, God cannot hate anyone, or they would cease to exist, also that for God to hate a thing is for him to will evil: a contradiction in terms.

So don’t talk down to me, when you don’t even know the meanings of the words you use.

 

[ralphinal]

Do any of our modern Jewish friends on this site feel like the trials and tribulations of the ancient ones speak to the daily journey that we all take in the world? Do you guys feel like there is a fight within yourselves to stay faithful to God while functioning in a world that pulls you from him?

Personally, I take great solice from the fact that no matter how badly they goofed up, God stayed with them.

 

[c659smith]

Um…obviously, at least to an English speaker, I was saying, “I could sympathize with the emotion.”

Kindly stop treating me like an idiot–as for instance, God cannot hate anyone, or they would cease to exist, also that for God to hate a thing is for him to will evil: a contradiction in terms.

So don’t talk down to me, when you don’t even know the meanings of the words you use.

The words mean that I must forgive others if I expect God to forgive me.

Why do you have a different translation?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Again who says Jews hate Jesus? I have never heard a Jewish scholar or Rabi say they hate Jesus.

When Jews say Jesus is a false prophet and bastard that doesn’t exactly show love. Apparently you don’t get around much.

God made a covenant with the Jews and I believe He will stand by it just like God said He would not destroy the earth by water again,

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Christ forgave the Jews on the Cross. “Father forgive them for they no not what they do.”

He was talking about the dumb Romans casting lots for his clothes who didn’t know about Messianic prophecy. Jews responsible for sending him to the cross should have known he was for real but their minds were corrupt.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So you are speaking from your own emotion and opinion and not according to anything in the Bible.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

errr… it would also have to develop different feet, chew the cud, etc… in other words, not be a swine anymore…

shalom

I think the point of describing those animals was to tell us not to eat carnivores.

If you eat any cattle that are fed brains and spinal cords and such in their grain then that probably isn’t kosher either.

 

[c659smith]

When Jews say Jesus is a false prophet and bastard that doesn’t exactly show love. Apparently you don’t get around much.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

He was talking about the dumb Romans casting lots for his clothes who didn’t know about Messianic prophecy. Jews responsible for sending him to the cross should have known he was for real but their minds were corrupt.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So you are speaking from your own emotion and opinion and not according to anything in the Bible.

I have not seen it written anywhere that Jews called Jesus a bastard. Where did you get that from?

I guess they would have to call 4 of their prophets which are ours also the same.
Read the geneology by Matthew and tell me there are 5 women mentioned what do they have in common and who did they give birth to?

My understanding is that the Jews said He was not the Messiah many today still debate if Jesus was a prophet.

Yes he was talking about the Jewish priests that did condemn Him but not the entire 12 tribes (The multitudes) forever more.

Thats debatable and I think you would lose, What He said was only for the Romans? Do you not understand that this had to happen to repair the rift between man and God?

What Jesus was talking about here I believe was the laws made by the Jewish priests for God and held people back from God for these man made laws.
Remember You make Laws for God and did not follow the laws God made for man? He was speaking to the Jewish priests once again.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I have not seen it written anywhere that Jews called Jesus a bastard. Where did you get that from?

From all the Jews that have told me Mary was a whore and Jesus a bastard.

Jews should not call Jesus a ‘bastard’, says cardinal

My understanding is that the Jews said He was not the Messiah many today still debate if Jesus was a prophet.

In almost fifteen years of these types of discussions, I’ve never seen Jews say that he was anything but a false prophet. Or just a rabbi that Christians built up lies around. Or simply never existed. I’ve never seen a Jew say he was a legitimate prophet, how could he be if he said he is Messiah and wasn’t? If you find me a Jew that says that I will be amazed.

Yes he was talking about the Jewish priests that did condemn Him but not the entire 12 tribes (The multitudes) forever more.

Thats debatable and I think you would lose, What He said was only for the Romans? Do you not understand that this had to happen to repair the rift between man and God?

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

“They” is the Roman soldiers.

What Jesus was talking about here I believe was the laws made by the Jewish priests for God and held people back from God for these man made laws.
Remember You make Laws for God and did not follow the laws God made for man? He was speaking to the Jewish priests once again.

How does any of that square with you saying God will forgive all Jews, but Jesus saying that hypocrite Jews will get thrown to weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Reuben_J]

FaithOfAbraham:

God did the same to Pharaoh though.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Yes, I guess so. It’s hard to understand. Maybe somebody can suggest a reason why.

Of course this is not exactly similar to Surah 5:14, where Allah hardened the heart of the covenant breakers. In other word he hardened the hearts of sinners so that they would be unable to repent. I don’t know if there is any other understanding of this verse.

In Ex 4:21 there was a specific reason for this, that is, to let the people go from the enslavery of the Pharaoh.
Just my take.