What Was Wrong With The Jews?

[Reuben_J]

The thrust of this thread is that they paid for the consequence of their disobediance despite being God’s chosen people. The fall of Israel and Judah inflicted such devastated effect on the Jews. The fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 caused even more misery on them.

We too as Christians are special in God’s eyes.

1 Pet 2
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Would we be immuned from similar destruction if we sin? If not, how can we avoid the fate of the Jews?

Most Jews didn’t and still don’t believe in Jesus because from their viewpoint he claimed to be God… this doesn’t make them rejected from God in itself. See Paul’s letter to the Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11.

Jews who believe in Jesus are called completed Jews. I have one such friend, and he does not have to undergo Baptism. Thus there are many Jews who believe.

But I don’t agree with you that Jews who do not believe in Jesus would deserve God’s salvation. This would contradict John 3:16-18

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The new salvation is opened to everybody, Jews included. By the same token if they disbelieve they would suffer the fate of the unbelievers. Looking back at the fate of the Jews of the old covenant, the consequence would be terrible.

 

[Valke2]

Jews who believe in Jesus are called completed Jews. I have one such friend, and he does not have to undergo Baptism. Thus there are many Jews who believe.

I agree that there are too many Jews who believe. We call them “christians”. I have many friends who do not yet embrace Torah and believe Jesus is God. I call them “uncompleted Jews”.

I will pray for you Ruben, that as an uncompleted Jew you abandon your faith and embrace mine. I’d appreciate it if you would let me know if this works for you.

 

[Lapell]

Jews say the bastard thing all the time, that Mary whored around and invented the virgin birth story to save her skin.

It is what it is, do you approve of that or not?

Seems like you do since you are trying to make my disapproval of it as being something wrong with me personally.

It’s not quite that. I haven’t read all your posts everywhere, but I kinda remember that you seem quite constantly and rather strongly reproachful against Jews in the ones I have read up to now. I notice you say “Jews”, not “the Jews”, but still, compared to other categories, when it comes to Jews the choice of words looks VERY pejorative, to say the least. I heard that thing about Mary from non-Jewish people, you know! (Oh, no, you don’t, for I haven’t said this before, it’s true!!)

 

[Valke2]

There is so much historical and cultural illiteracy here it’s laughable.

Not mixing milchen and fleischen is a rather late rabbinical interpretation based on the text “You will not boil the calf in his mother’s milk”–which was done as a part of the cow-god cult of one of the neighboring tribes.

I found your post interesting but because it is no fun to agree, I’m only posting regarding some comments I had a bit of an issue with.

It might be more accurate to say that such a dish was reserved for the diety and therefore prohibited to people. If you are really concerned with historical and cultural inaccuracies or influences, then you might have to throw out hte entire bible. Or you can choose to embrace the traditions and what they mean to you now. (For example, I can’t think of a bigger cultural inaccuracy than the statment that the Jews were able to convince Pilate to kill Jesus).

Obviously, “Do not engage in an act designed to worship a Ba’al,” is from God.

Why is this obviously from God and the dietary prohibitions are not?

 

[Lapell]

The thrust of this thread is that they paid for the consequence of their disobediance despite being God’s chosen people. The fall of Israel and Judah inflicted such devastated effect on the Jews. The fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 caused even more misery on them.

We too as Christians are special in God’s eyes.

1 Pet 2
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Would we be immuned from similar destruction if we sin? If not, how can we avoid the fate of the Jews?

Jews who believe in Jesus are called completed Jews. I have one such friend, and he does not have to undergo Baptism. Thus there are many Jews who believe.

But I don’t agree with you that Jews who do not believe in Jesus would deserve God’s salvation. This would contradict John 3:16-18

I think you misunderstand me, Reuben J. I didn’t say those who don’t believe among the chosen people will be saved anyway! I just said that they are still God’s chosen people, that as His people, God hasn’t rejected them. For a good reason: their rejection of God might be for the wrong reasons, but it may not be final! Only those who have rejected God for good and won’t change their mind are sure not to be in Heaven in the end. Is it the case of all the Jews who didn’t become Christian since His first Coming? I don’t know!
Remember the late Bishop Fulton J. Sheen: " In the United States, there are not a hundred people who hate the Roman Catholic Church; but there are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." Maybe it’s the case with the Jews’s attitude toward Jesus and Christianity (and toward anyone among them who becomes a Christian)? Who knows for sure?

 

[Lapell]

Anyhow, Reuben J, before Jesus no Jew would have said “Before Abraham was, I AM” or “The Father (God) and I are one”, and it was quite obvious they had no notion then that God could AND would become a man! How was it that the Apostles and many of Jesus’ disciples didn’t react so strongly? For one thing, they have seen things so extraordinary from Him that the priests and the scribes (and most Pharisees) haven’t, so it might have helped a bit… So is it such a wonder that the Jewish religious authorities would not believe Jesus’ claim to be no one less than God the Son? Any notion of God having a begotten was unthinkable to them and should be discarded on the spot if it were to be uttered. The Jews had always recited the Sh’ma Israel: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One” (Sh’ma Israel adonai elohenu adonai echad.)

 

[Lapell]

So, Reuben J, in short, God may punish but still won’t reject His people (Jews or Christians). If individual Jews or Christians reject God totally (and not just what they wrongly believe to be God! - it may happen, you know!), then at the Last Judgment these will be rejected, yes. But it’s an extreme case, it’s the total refusal of the Light of God under ANY circumstances, the only unforgivable sin actually, because they won’t go to God, even in their minds, to beg for God’s forgiveness. Does this make sense to you? God bless you!

 

[Reuben_J]

I think you misunderstand me, Reuben J. I didn’t say those who don’t believe among the chosen people will be saved anyway! I just said that they are still God’s chosen people, that as His people, God hasn’t rejected them. For a good reason: their rejection of God might be for the wrong reasons, but it may not be final! Only those who have rejected God for good and won’t change their mind are sure not to be in Heaven in the end. Is it the case of all the Jews who didn’t become Christian since His first Coming? I don’t know!
Remember the late Bishop Fulton J. Sheen: " In the United States, there are not a hundred people who hate the Roman Catholic Church; but there are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." Maybe it’s the case with the Jews’s attitude toward Jesus and Christianity (and toward anyone among them who becomes a Christian)? Who knows for sure?

I fear for those Jews then. Learning from the OT, every time there was a disbelief of what a prophet said, great calamity befell upon them.

Are you saying that the uncompleted Jews still misundertsand Jesus because it’s very hard for them to believe that he is the ‘I AM’? The apostles found it was hard to believe too. And many more Jews were the same at that time. But there was no mistaken of the power of the Holy Spirit and the resurrection. Remember on the road to Emmaus? “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” Then they went back to Jerusalem and met the apostles and said verything about Jesus was true.

Those early Jews understood and believed. Those who did not believe never believed and they were lost. What excuse do you have for the unbelievers? Sure they can wait but they don’t live forever. Suppose they don’t open their eyes to believe before they die?

What about in the OT when they did not believe in the prophets? I cannot see where there can be any exception today for the unbelievers. I think this is what wrong with the Jews. The stubborness to unbelieve.

The privilege of being God’s chosen people has expired now that the Son has come!

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree that there are too many Jews who believe. We call them “christians”. I have many friends who do not yet embrace Torah and believe Jesus is God. I call them “uncompleted Jews”.

I will pray for you Ruben, that as an uncompleted Jew you abandon your faith and embrace mine. I’d appreciate it if you would let me know if this works for you.

Sorry, I don’t do personal attack. It is draining and unfruitful, as you could see. That’s not my purpose in this forum.

Until you want to discuss objectively then I will give you the deserved attention.

Until then you and your kinds can eat your hearts out.

 

[Lapell]

I fear for those Jews then. Learning from the OT, every time there was a disbelief of what a prophet said, great calamity befell upon them.

I think the observant Jews acknowledge this too.

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[Lapell]

The privilege of being God’s chosen people has expired now that the Son has come!

As long as the door is still open on God’s side, I don’t see that it is the case. I think that in Nostra Aetate, they still are called His chosen people. And like I said, there is this whole passage in Romans (chapters 9, 10 and 11). Have you read it?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It’s not quite that. I haven’t read all your posts everywhere, but I kinda remember that you seem quite constantly and rather strongly reproachful against Jews in the ones I have read up to now. I notice you say “Jews”, not “the Jews”, but still, compared to other categories, when it comes to Jews the choice of words looks VERY pejorative, to say the least. I heard that thing about Mary from non-Jewish people, you know! (Oh, no, you don’t, for I haven’t said this before, it’s true!!)

I am harder on Jews than Christians or Muslims because most of them I know say atheism is ok for Jews. Have you ever seen a Christian or Muslim atheist?

So it’s an awful thing among those who parade around under the banner of God’s Chosen People, to say it is ok to reject God.

But I’ve been hard on Christians and Muslims too, for their errors.

 

[po18guy]

Despite being God’s chosen people they suffered untold proportion of destruction as a nation in their History. The flood during Noah’s time, the destruction of the temple resulting in slavery in Babylon and the second destruction of the temple by the Romans. Each somehow was preceded by warnings and prophecies; and the exhortation for them to turn back to God.

Are not we all having the Jews in our hearts and that disobedience and disbelief could lead to our own destruction. I am exploring the idea that this is God’s own message that even as Christians it would not guarantee our salvation if we sin.

Christ knew this, and knew that even the twelve were sinners - one a devil. So, he graced them with power over sin. Praise God! We have hope.

 

[Valke2]

Sorry, I don’t do personal attack. It is draining and unfruitful, as you could see. That’s not my purpose in this forum.

Until you want to discuss objectively then I will give you the deserved attention.

Until then you and your kinds can eat your hearts out.

Really? What is your purpose then? I admit I found your OP a bit confusing. I don’t really get it. Is your purpose to simply say that any Jew who does not accept Jesus as God is doomed? Are you saying that it mere stubborness that prevents religious Jews, or secular Jews from embracing Christianity?