What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

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Joysong said:
That’s because you did not live through the old days of the TLM, Sonny. I did, and I truly experienced first-hand the problems, which is why I love the new liturgy!! You no doubt saw my posts where I stated that the majority of these masses are not typical of Orange County. Praise God! Too bad you don’t live in my area to see one that is reverent and orthodox. They are all over the place here.
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I lived through the end of VII, My two sisters, much older than me also lived through it as did my parents.

Just as you state that the mass seen in the video is not typical and you do not live there, I can state that the Catholics in my area didn’t have a problem with the Holy Mass before VII.

Just because you are not there, does not mean that you don’t know.
 
Karin said:
The tabernacle does not need to be in the center (would be nice though) but it should be prominent that anyone that walks in can find it…without playing hide and seek to find it!
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The directives from Rome – including the new Missal issued two years ago – say that the tabernacle in which the Blessed Sacrament is reserved is to be located in a very prominent place either at the center or at such a side altar that it is really prominent and that around it there are kneelers and chairs so that people can pray – kneel down or sit down. And it is to be so prominent that nobody should need to look for it when you enter the church.
Therefore, whenever you enter a church and you look for the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved and you do not easily see it, then those who arrange it are already wrong. Because it should be prominent – it should stand out – to show our faith.
However, it is not a law that it must be at the center. But it is a law that where it is should be prominent. And that it should be easy for people to see it and to go there and pray. But unfortunately in some churches, sometimes those who did it did not know. But they did not know that they did not know.
So you enter the church and you ask where is the tabernacle? “They have taken the Lord away and we do not know where they have put Him”. That’s what Mary Magdalene said on Easter day.
Cardinal Francis Arinze at a conference in July sponsored by the Apostolate for Family Consecration
 
Anima_Christi said:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center?
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Just a question: when was it ever required to be in the center?
 
Anima_Christi said:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real presider.
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Small question, Anima Christi: when did the Church ever require the tabernacle to be in the center?
 
anamchara said:
If the NO is done properly as you discribed? “With Gregorian Chant, much wider use of Latin, altar boys, etc.” wouldn’t that then be a TLM and not a NO? I’m asking the question because I’m not sure I understand. Your thinking is anything done like holding hands, guitar is not proper? Do you mean it makes the Mass invalid? Or just not proper in terms of you wouldn’t like it?
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If you would’ve quoted my entire post it would’ve answered some of that for you. It has nothing to do with my opinion at all, the Mass was not supposed to have altar girls, guitars, lack of Latin, etc. The documents for the NO say that Gregorian Chant should be the norm and take pride of place among sacred music. The documents also call for a wider use of the Latin than you find in most NO parishes. And the documents also said that altar girls may be used in those situations were they were already being used, (it was an abuse and the Church allowed - in those circumstances - much like when Moses allowed divorce, because of the hardness of their hearts. Unfortunately everybody after that was like, “Oh, the Church allows it now, we should use them…” THAT is also an abuse.)

It’s a shame that so many people, instead of seeking what the Church desires, they seek the loopholes to get what they desire.
 
The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) decreed that the Blessed Sacrament be
kept in a secure receptacle and placed in a clean, conspicuous place. The
Synods of Cologne (1281) and Munster (1279) stipulated that the Blessed
Sacrament be kept above the altar, sometimes in tabernacles shaped like
doves and suspended by chains. (An example of this type of tabernacle is
on exhibit in the medieval collection of the National Gallery of Art.)

Overall, during these times, the Blessed Sacrament was reserved in four
possible ways: in a locked cabinet in the sacristy, a custom originating
in the early Church; in a cabinet in the wall of the choir area, or in a
cabinet called the “Sacrament House,” which was constructed like a tower
and attached to a wall near the altar; in a “dove” receptacle suspended
from the baldachino above the altar; and in a tabernacle on the altar
itself or in the reredos of the altar.

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/TABERNCL.TXT
AJV said:
Small question, Anima Christi: when did the Church ever require the tabernacle to be in the center?
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dumspirospero said:
The Fourth Lateran Council (1215) decreed that the Blessed Sacrament be
kept in a secure receptacle and placed in a clean, conspicuous place. The
Synods of Cologne (1281) and Munster (1279) stipulated that the Blessed
Sacrament be kept above the altar, sometimes in tabernacles shaped like
doves and suspended by chains. (An example of this type of tabernacle is
on exhibit in the medieval collection of the National Gallery of Art.)

Overall, during these times, the Blessed Sacrament was reserved in four
possible ways: in a locked cabinet in the sacristy, a custom originating
in the early Church; in a cabinet in the wall of the choir area, or in a
cabinet called the “Sacrament House,” which was constructed like a tower
and attached to a wall near the altar; in a “dove” receptacle suspended
from the baldachino above the altar; and in a tabernacle on the altar
itself or in the reredos of the altar.

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/TABERNCL.TXT
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Thanks, but where does it say that it has to be in the center (i.e. the High altar)
 
I mean…it is kind of self explanatory if you ask me…The Altar they are referring to is the main Altar in the center of the Church…it says to place it above that…once could conclude from deductive reasoning, that will be place on top of the altar, in the center…Doesn’t a tabernacle in the center of an altar look a lot better than if it were on the right hand edge or left hand edge of it???
AJV said:
Thanks, but where does it say that it has to be in the center (i.e. the High altar)
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dumspirospero said:
I mean…it is kind of self explanatory if you ask me…The Altar they are referring to is the main Altar in the center of the Church…it says to place it above that…once could conclude from deductive reasoning, that will be place on top of the altar, in the center…Doesn’t a tabernacle in the center of an altar look a lot better than if it were on the right hand edge or left hand edge of it???
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Agreed, bt it could also be at a side altar?
 
Joysong said:
That’s because you did not live through the old days of the TLM, Sonny. I did, and I truly experienced first-hand the problems, which is why I love the new liturgy!! You no doubt saw my posts where I stated that the majority of these masses are not typical of Orange County. Praise God! Too bad you don’t live in my area to see one that is reverent and orthodox. They are all over the place here.
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Therein lies the problem. 90% of places don’t HAVE a reverent Novus Ordo. The only one I have EVER seen in my diocese, and I have been to a LOT of Churches, is at my Church, which also offers the Tridentine Mass.

For your thoughts that the TLM was all screwy back in the day, I could give you names of people who also lived through it and think the NO was the wrong way to fix things. What did it fix? It didn’t give us more vocations, instead we lost them. Did it make the average Catholic better? No, instead over half of the Catholics in America are pro-choice and pro-contraception. Not to mention they probably understand the Mass less now than when it was in Latin. Heaven knows I didn’t know hardly anything about the Mass until I started going to my current parish.

Every liturgy is going to have problems. It’s just that in the TLM there is no room for a Barney Blessing.
 
You are joking right? You must be…either that or you haven’t read all the cited works in their entirety. Why are there those that must insist on changing things from how they have always been???/
AJV said:
Agreed, bt it could also be at a side altar?
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Unfinished said:
Therein lies the problem. 90% of places don’t HAVE a reverent Novus Ordo. The only one I have EVER seen in my diocese, and I have been to a LOT of Churches, is at my Church, which also offers the Tridentine Mass.

For your thoughts that the TLM was all screwy back in the day, I could give you names of people who also lived through it and think the NO was the wrong way to fix things. What did it fix? It didn’t give us more vocations, instead we lost them. Did it make the average Catholic better? No, instead over half of the Catholics in America are pro-choice and pro-contraception. Not to mention they probably understand the Mass less now than when it was in Latin. Heaven knows I didn’t know hardly anything about the Mass until I started going to my current parish.

Every liturgy is going to have problems. It’s just that in the TLM there is no room for a Barney Blessing.
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Here’s one for ya!
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Credit to Paul Nichols Cartoon Blog
 
dumspirospero said:
You are joking right? You must be…either that or you haven’t read all the cited works in their entirety. Why are there those that must insist on changing things from how they have always been???/
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I’m sorry, but I’m really not seeing it as self explanatory at all, and I can’t understand how you’re getting that interpretation form the text. 🙂 Indeed, lots of things were the norm or the common practise: however my question is whether it has been laid down in the legislation as a must.
Especially considering that there were places that reserved it over side altars. I’m not changing anything-it is just that all documents that I have looked at- Cer. Epis. , the Rituale, the Instr. Clem.,- all do not specify that it has to be on the main altar. Some of them say “high altar or another”
 
Even if there isn’t a text that explicity outlines that it be at the center of a High Altar…Tradition has it there…is that authoritative enough? Or simply something to be overlooked?
AJV said:
I’m sorry, but I’m really not seeing it as self explanatory at all, and I can’t understand how you’re getting that interpretation form the text. 🙂 Indeed, lots of things were the norm or the common practise: however my question is whether it has been laid down in the legislation as a must.
Especially considering that there were places that reserved it over side altars. I’m not changing anything-it is just that all documents that I have looked at- Cer. Epis. , the Rituale, the Instr. Clem.,- all do not specify that it has to be on the main altar. Some of them say “high altar or another”
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dumspirospero said:
Even if there isn’t a text that explicity outlines that it be at the center of a High Altar…Tradition has it there…is that authoritative enough? Or simply something to be overlooked?
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I love your new signature Sonny! 😃
 
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