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paramedicgirl
Guest
That picture of the Virgin Mary is nasty!
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Wait! Don’t I work there?
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arieh0310
Guest
I found this church from this Ignatius Insight article. Read it and visit the parish website only if you have a strong stomach.To be fair the photograph doesn’t appear to take in the whole building. Could be the back entrance of the Parish Hall for all we can see
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palmas85
Guest
Another New Orleans Church Our Lady of the Rosary. Mt daughter was baptized there. As you can see it too escaped the destruction . New Orleans was actually pretty lucky in that regard.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
This is what I mean. It looks like a software company. There’s an ASSEMBLY OF GOD CHURCH, if you please, about a mile from my house that caught the clue that some of our bishops and priests haven’t caught. It’s Vegas stucco, but it has classic lines, stand glass, a noble cuppola. Our Cathedral, on the other hand…well, just look:
lasvegas-diocese.org/parishes_guardian_angel.html
Yes, that’s a A frame you’re looking at.
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arieh0310
Guest
This is my favorite picture:
http://www.resurrection-catholic-parish.org/photo_album/EasterVigil2005/images/9.jpg
They make this guy get in an immersion tub yet pour water over his head. So his pants and head are wet but his shirt is mostly dry. If you are gonna do immersion, go all the way…
http://www.resurrection-catholic-parish.org/photo_album/EasterVigil2005/images/9.jpg
They make this guy get in an immersion tub yet pour water over his head. So his pants and head are wet but his shirt is mostly dry. If you are gonna do immersion, go all the way…
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historyb
Guest
I saw the video and it is sad what we lost and I’m a convert who was not around when the TLM was said originally and I can see we lost a lot.
I can say the only abuse I’ve seen in my Diocese was not at my parish, but at a Eucharistic conference with the Bishop presiding where at the beginning Mass they had dancers all over the alter.
I can say the only abuse I’ve seen in my Diocese was not at my parish, but at a Eucharistic conference with the Bishop presiding where at the beginning Mass they had dancers all over the alter.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
My parish is an example of a re-do away from stark and ugly. There’s not a great deal that can be done structurally to it (it fits the lot, as it were), but our former pastor took a PINK (yes, you heard me, PINK, in honor of Gaudette Sunday, I suppose, or because there was a sale on pink paint) and refurbished it. It isn’t perfect (I’d love to talk someone into moving the priest’s chair to the side of the altar and shift the Tabernacle to the center, under the window to Our Lady crowned by the Holy Trinity and the Crucifix. I’d put it on a great stone or marble plynth and put a statue of an angel on either side, one wing on each sweeping up to protect the Tabernacle and their hands covering their faces) and there isn’t anything we can do about the choir area (there’s no way to build a loft at the back, as the roof is too low), but I give our old pastor a lot of credit for his effort. It looks better than it did before.
ourlady.org/church/2004_Christ.htm
And our priests would have plenty of room to offer the Mass ad orientum!
ourlady.org/church/2004_Christ.htm
And our priests would have plenty of room to offer the Mass ad orientum!
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Kirk, why do you ignore the obvious? These churches were built FOR the Novus Ordo, while the beautiful churches I showed you were built FOR the Traditional Mass. If you were to ask the people who wreckovated–I’m sorry–renovated these churches, they would tell you that they did it to update them according to Vatican II standards. Really, the beautiful churches in the pictures are quite unsuitable for the Novus Ordo (as any liturgist could tell you) because the altar is not freestanding so the priest can face the people, there are altar rails (we STAND for communion now), there are statues crowding the sanctuary which V2 discouraged (they distract from the liturgy…yeah right), the altar (which doesn’t look enough like a table for NO standards) is too far away…it needs to be in the midst of the people, the tabernacle is on the altar (forbidden by V2) and it is in the center, in the sanctuary…Vatican II suggested it be moved to another area.
Kirk, the reason these churches are ugly is because they are centered on man and his accomplishments, and not the glory of Almighty God. I am well acquainted with both the NO and the TLM and any casual, unbiased observer could recognize that the TLM is more God-centered and the NO is more man-centered.
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t get the whole immersion thing to begin with … what’s wrong with JUST pouring water over the head??? It’d save a heck of a lot of water and bills for cleaning clothes.
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Well! This church needs to be brought up to par with Vatican II standards! LOL.
Seriously though, if anything, the beautiful church in that link merely proves my point. For one, it looks like a PRE-Vatican II church (which is likely why it’s so beautiful). Notice how there are altar rails to receive communion while kneeling, the altar isn’t freestanding (which V2 mandated) either, and the Church doesn’t even use the Novus Ordo, it uses an Anglican-Catholic hybrid known as the Anglican Use. This is just more evidence that we already had simplicity that was truly noble in our churches and architecture and liturgy BEFORE Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, and we did not need our Mass to be done away with to give us that.
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real presider.
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lak611
Guest
It does look better! I went to Mass at your parish back in 1994 when I was vacationing in Las Vegas.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
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I don’t agree (the last paragraph has not one, single verifiable FACT). I agree that the NO can be abused, but then I believe the TLM can as well (as Cardinal Arinze also stated, I believe he’s celebrated that Mass). And those buildings are ugly because they’re UGLY. And (given the traditional Catholic idea that we attribute best motive to our fellows until there is irrefutable evidence to the contrary) I think they were built to the glory of God. They just missed…very badly. With respect, your assertions are extremely subjective (I admit mine are as well, as regards aesthetics): I know Catholics who grew up with the TLM who do not have any nostalgia for it, just as I know from these forums that there are young people who are very keen on it.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Well, being a member of a cathedral parish in which they stripped the high altar, ripped out the choir loft, and installed an electronic organ which, when I joined the cathedral choir in 1983, was installed in the front with the choir standing on the steps facing the congregation…there is hope! I know because I have experienced it.
That Saturday in 1988 when the Great Hoover electronic organ blew up (actually shorted out) during the wedding Mass of a choir member, started a chain of reaction that is still going to this day. So, what’s a cathedral choir to do when it looses it’s electronic organ? Our organist had built himself a medieval portativ wooden organ powered by an electric blower. Which forced us to abandon Haugen and Haas et al because the dynamics of the portativ couldn’t handle it. So, we discovered the wonderful English translations of a whole lot of Latin motets, sequences, chants etc. in, of all things the 1940 Episcopalian Hymnal. We eeked on for a year until someone donated the use of a harpsichord for our use. Harpsichord with Haugen et al don’t work. So our repertoire expanded to the Baroque period.
By this time, it was obvious that something needed to be done. A cathedral church without an organ - even an electronic monstrosity? Behold! We need an organ! Umm, where we gonna put it? (In true Monty Python fashion, there is a chorus of shouts …a choir loft!..a choir loft!)
And so the choir loft which was ripped out in 1965 was restored in 1992. And so the pipe organ which was ripped out in 1965 was restored in 1992. And lo! All of the statuary which from the high altar which was given to faithful parishoners lo those many years ago is being returned to its rightful place. No, it’s not going to be used on a high altar…but it is being used in and about the cathedral.
We are Catholics. We have a profound heritage of art and music. I don’t want to be a Protestant and worship in a church devoid of all meaning. I like statues. I like stained glass. I like frescoes. I like ornamentation.
Belloc said it best - Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s music, laughter and good red wine…at least I’ve always found it so…Benedicamus Domino!
That Saturday in 1988 when the Great Hoover electronic organ blew up (actually shorted out) during the wedding Mass of a choir member, started a chain of reaction that is still going to this day. So, what’s a cathedral choir to do when it looses it’s electronic organ? Our organist had built himself a medieval portativ wooden organ powered by an electric blower. Which forced us to abandon Haugen and Haas et al because the dynamics of the portativ couldn’t handle it. So, we discovered the wonderful English translations of a whole lot of Latin motets, sequences, chants etc. in, of all things the 1940 Episcopalian Hymnal. We eeked on for a year until someone donated the use of a harpsichord for our use. Harpsichord with Haugen et al don’t work. So our repertoire expanded to the Baroque period.
By this time, it was obvious that something needed to be done. A cathedral church without an organ - even an electronic monstrosity? Behold! We need an organ! Umm, where we gonna put it? (In true Monty Python fashion, there is a chorus of shouts …a choir loft!..a choir loft!)
And so the choir loft which was ripped out in 1965 was restored in 1992. And so the pipe organ which was ripped out in 1965 was restored in 1992. And lo! All of the statuary which from the high altar which was given to faithful parishoners lo those many years ago is being returned to its rightful place. No, it’s not going to be used on a high altar…but it is being used in and about the cathedral.
We are Catholics. We have a profound heritage of art and music. I don’t want to be a Protestant and worship in a church devoid of all meaning. I like statues. I like stained glass. I like frescoes. I like ornamentation.
Belloc said it best - Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine, there’s music, laughter and good red wine…at least I’ve always found it so…Benedicamus Domino!
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
They don’t require it, but I have the liberty to think that the tabernacle should be in the center. And no, I don’t think that the chair in the center is symbolic in the least of what the NO Mass is about. I don’t think it has anything at all to do with the nature of the Mass. I think it has to do with an ego: ego in general, but also one particular ego (any more would be the sin of at least detraction, but also possibly calumny, since I have no window into anyone’s soul). It isn’t the fault of the Mass.
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LilyM
Guest
No, you’re the one who’s missing Kirk’s point …
You explain to him and me why NON-Catholic churches that were ALSO built around the time of Vatican 2 went through similar changes in architectural style. And why offices and houses too were similarly were built very differently all of a sudden (which they also were) - less monumental and grand and more bare-bones functional.
Did the Baptists change the building style of their churches around the same time because they had had similar changes to their style of worship? Did they also suddenly have an attitude change towards man and his accomplishments and away from God?
Did people build their homes and offices differently for these same reasons?
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Anima_Christi
Guest
I don’t have time to respond to everything you said, but you mentioned that the TLM can be abused. I often hear people say this. Would you mind explaining to me what some common abuses are in the TLM? I attend the TLM on a regular basis and have attended it at different locations, and often serve it, and I haven’t seen a single abuse. I have never heard of a TLM before or after the Council where the abuse of communion in the hand, lay ministers of communion, and altar girls (and these things were all grave abuses, until Paul VI and John Paul II rewarded those who were committing these abuses by actually allowing them) have been present, for example.
BTW, I am a young person (20 yrs) and I LOVE the Traditional Latin Mass and will never go back to the NO!
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Anima_Christi
Guest
Having ugly, banal looking churches is quite appropriate for man-made, man-centered religions such as the Baptist faith. It is NOT appropriate for the one, true religion.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I disagree that it proves your point. You keep asserting that it’s the fault of the Mass. You haven’t given one, single fact that establishes the NO Mass’ culpability in ugly, modern church buildings. It’s a verifiable fact that lots of ugly, modern church buildings were built before VII (and thus LONG before the NO). Yes, it looks like an older church, which makes it pre-Vatican, but as I said, tastes and the tide had already begun the turn toward the modern and the ugly before the council started.Well! This church needs to be brought up to par with Vatican II standards! LOL.
Seriously though, if anything, the beautiful church in that link merely proves my point. For one, it looks like a PRE-Vatican II church (which is likely why it’s so beautiful). Notice how there are altar rails to receive communion while kneeling, the altar isn’t freestanding (which V2 mandated) either, and the Church doesn’t even use the Novus Ordo, it uses an Anglican-Catholic hybrid known as the Anglican Use. This is just more evidence that we already had simplicity that was truly noble in our churches and architecture and liturgy BEFORE Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, and we did not need our Mass to be done away with to give us that.
I realize that that church doesn’t use the Nous Ordo and what the Anglican Use liturgy is (I was an Episcopalian and I’ve attended them).
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