What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

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Anima_Christi said:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real presider./QUOTE]
Couldn’t agree more. 😉
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paramedicgirl said:
Anima Christi;1807389:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real
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presider./QUOTE]
Couldn’t agree more. 😉

ParamedicGirl: Do you believe that it is inherent in the nature of the NO Mass or do you believe that that attitude is an abuse of the NO Mass?
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Anima_Christi said:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real presider.
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Couldn’t agree more.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
paramedicgirl;1807495:
ParamedicGirl: Do you believe that it is inherent in the nature of the NO Mass or do you believe that that attitude is an abuse of the NO Mass?
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I think it is a product of what the Novus Ordo has become, which apparently isn’t what it was meant to become.
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netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
When done correctly, without innovation, the NO is just what you described. The TLM has different prayers. The NO can even be said totally in Latin, but that still doesn’t make it a TLM. It makes it what you see on EWTN.

It doesn’t make the Holy Mass invalid to hold hands (or half the deluded by liturgists Catholics would not be going to a valid mass on Sunday) but it still isn’t how it should be done.

You can make a cake with no eggs by adding Vinegar and Baking Soda. Without a heavy amount of Cocoa, it is disgusting. But it can be done, it’s still a cake, just not right.
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Thanks for responding 🙂 Actually I was asking the poster if he (personally) felt the Mass I discribed was valid ie holding hands and such things. 😉 I am aware these things don’t make the Mass invalid.
but it still isn’t how it should be done.
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Now this is just your personal opinion right? 🙂 😉

It will be interesting to see where all this will lead us in 10 to 20yrs.
 
I totally agree…I think it may have to do with the Protestants claiming we didn’t have legitimate Baptism since we didn’t use immersion…therefore a lot of uncathechized Catholics started stressing and calling priest and Bishops…and as a result, to appease them and ease their minds, they started using immersion…that is my take on it…just an opinion though…could be wrong.
LilyM said:
I don’t get the whole immersion thing to begin with … what’s wrong with JUST pouring water over the head??? It’d save a heck of a lot of water and bills for cleaning clothes.
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Montreal is home to many truly amazing churches. Take a look:

Basilique Notre-Dame de Montréal:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/N-d-de-montreal.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/44545/dsc_2187t1.jpg

Cathédrale-Basilique Marie-Reine-du-Monde (Cathedral-Basilica of Mary, Queen of the World)- based on St. Peter’s in Rome:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/Montreal-cathedral.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/Marie-reine-du-monde.jpg

St. Joseph’s Oratory:

 
Anima_Christi said:
Kirk, why should the Tabernacle be in the center? Vatican II and the current Church do not require it to be in the center, so aren’t you going against the mind of the Church by saying it should be in the center? The fact that a chair where a man sits is in the very center rather than Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is sooo symbolic of what the New Mass is all about and who is the real presider.
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The tabernacle does not need to be in the center (would be nice though) but it should be prominent that anyone that walks in can find it…without playing hide and seek to find it!
 
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LilyM:
You really seem to think that the idea to make changes to the Mass came completely out of the blue and that everyone and everything was perfectly happy and hunky-dory before the big bad NO, don’t you?

Change came, and change continued, because a large proportion of celebrants and attendeees were UNHAPPY with the TLM and WANTED change!!!
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You hit the nail square on the proverbial head, Lily. Few consider that in the days of the TLM there were no computers and no internet on which to post the problems/pictures/abuses that occurred in that mass. The personal computer was not even invented until 1981, and was so expensive that the average person did not own one. The Web came many years later. There was no capability of spreading one’s discontent worldwide for everyone else to learn of the problems with TLM, nor to discuss the problems as we are doing today at CAF. It puts a favorable bias toward the TLM only because it was hidden from public censures.

Nor were there the mini-cameras of today, even those hidden in cell phones, through which one could stealthily take pictures of the wrongs. I doubt that video cameras were even developed at that time, but those that were available were large and impossible to hide in one’s pocket.

So I blame technology for broadcasting the unfair bias against the N.O. as though the TLM was perfect. Many of today’s bishops are elderly and celebrated the TLM as pastors. Could it be that they themselves knew of the imperfections and that this is the very reason they have denied the permissions to celebrate it?
 
Originally Posted by LilyM
*You really seem to think that the idea to make changes to the Mass came completely out of the blue and that everyone and everything was perfectly happy and hunky-dory before the big bad NO, don’t you?

Change came, and change continued, because a large proportion of celebrants and attendeees were UNHAPPY with the TLM and WANTED change!!!*
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*That kind of thinking is what has gotten us where we are today…membership down in most parishes, vocations are down, the abuses that we are currently seeing in most Churchs & communities …mind you this is just my opinion🙂 *
*Thanks for the changes:rolleyes: *
 
Excuse me…I am about to go wrap my head in tin foil.
Joysong said:
You hit the nail square on the proverbial head, Lily. Few consider that in the days of the TLM there were no computers and no internet on which to post the problems/pictures/abuses that occurred in that mass. The personal computer was not even invented until 1981, and was so expensive that the average person did not own one. The Web came many years later. There was no capability of spreading one’s discontent worldwide for everyone else to learn of the problems with TLM, nor to discuss the problems as we are doing today at CAF. It puts a favorable bias toward the TLM only because it was hidden from public censures.

Nor were there the mini-cameras of today, even those hidden in cell phones, through which one could stealthily take pictures of the wrongs. I doubt that video cameras were even developed at that time, but those that were available were large and impossible to hide in one’s pocket.

So I blame technology for broadcasting the unfair bias against the N.O. as though the TLM was perfect. Many of today’s bishops are elderly and celebrated the TLM as pastors. Could it be that they themselves knew of the imperfections and that this is the very reason they have denied the permissions to celebrate it?
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That’s because you did not live through the old days of the TLM, Sonny. I did, and I truly experienced first-hand the problems, which is why I love the new liturgy!! You no doubt saw my posts where I stated that the majority of these masses are not typical of Orange County. Praise God! Too bad you don’t live in my area to see one that is reverent and orthodox. They are all over the place here.
 
I have to agree with Kirk–the modern, ugly churches were being built well before Vatican II. The picture below is of my old parish. It was built in 1954–that’s right, over 50 years ago. Originally the altar was set against the east wall and it had altar rails for Holy Communion. Around the entire inside were absolutely horrid moziac tiles depicting various parts of Jesus’s life. The first thing that struck me when I walked in was it’s resemblence to the auditorium classrooms that I had some classes in while attending the University of Oklahoma. You walk in and the sanctuary is much lower than the people in the pews. All through Mass you are looking down. Of course since Vatican II they have moved the Tabernacle, removed the altar rails, replaced the altar with a table.

stcharlesokc.org/images/stcharles.jpg
 
anamchara said:
Now this is just your personal opinion right? 🙂 😉

It will be interesting to see where all this will lead us in 10 to 20yrs.
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No, it’s not MY personal opinion. It’s the Vatican’s personal opinion.
When Cardinal Arinze was in Detroit last year, his talk was run on our AveMaria station.

There was a question about the Orans and handholding.
He quoted from the GIRM (that the directions is given TO THE PRIEST).

He then said, “Do what is directed.”

So the Good Cardinal, who is in charge of such things holds “my” opinion if you want to state it that way. I prefer to think, I hold his.
 
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