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Anima_Christi
Guest
Perhaps they were trying to appeal to the gay culture, which is very prevalent in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles…
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I’m sorry you feel that way. The possibility doesn’t exist.
Here’s the problem with your reasoning in assuming the question is as cut and dried or even fair. You’re making the assumption that I cited earlier, aren’t you really? That in promulgating the NO, the Pope may as well have ordered us to do jumping jacks at the consecration, or ordered that the priests dress like Barney. You think from the academic position that these things are equally bad (correct me if I’m wrong) or at least as equally absurd.
2 things: First, when I defend the NO, I’m defending the traditional Catholic teaching (from Trent, at the very least) that the Church cannot propose to Her people a Mass or any other type of liturgy that would lead those people to impiety, lead them away from Christ. That isn’t so much a defense of the NO as it is a defense of the Church. The Church isn’t going to promulgate a Barney Mass or a Clown Mass or a Jumping Jack Mass because that would indeed lead people away from Christ (those things are patently absurd and of no relation TO Christ). She isn’t going to do this because She isn’t able to do it, couldn’t do it, it wouldn’t occur to Her to do it (or the Vicar whose hand is at the helm). It doesn’t exist in the realm of possiblities. If you feel that the promulgation of the NO inevitably lead to the Barney Mass, the Clown Mass or the Jumping Jack Mass, we have a fundamental disagreement: I don’t believe that the Church is capable of it.
Second, when I defend the NO, I’m doing no more than I would do if someone attacked my mother. I’m certainly not going to join in smacking her around. I was received into the Church with the Pauline Rite (albeit in the rarified air of a monastery) and it is that that has nurtured my life and faith as a Catholic. It’s my obligation to defend this Holy Mass, not simply against some of the comments made by advocates for the TLM, but against the very abuses that they accuse of being inherent in the NO’s very nature.
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JKirkLVNV
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I’m sorry, I have to respond to this: Can you not see how this is more unsubtantiated rhetorical flourish, Anima Christi, that isn’t terribly interested in getting at the truth of the matter? In reason, what in the Novus Ordo inspired any of the above that you accuse it of? I’ve been in many churches (still standing) that were built in the years just before VII (so well before the NO was promulgated) that had started the turn to the “ugly auditorium look.” It had nothing to do with the Novus Ordo and far more to do with the fact that that was the style, the trend, the fad! The Novus Ordo didn’t produce these awful churches, men produced them. Isn’t that a lot closer to the truth? What part of the Novus Ordo produced that ugly “space” looking church you pictured?Rather than squabbling back and forth about whether the Novus Ordo is a beautiful and authentically Catholic Mass, it’s sometimes better to simply look at the RESULTS themselves, for actions speak louder than words. The Traditional Mass inspired the architecture of Notre Dame Cathedral and St. Peter’s Basilica, in addition to thousands of other churches and cathedrals and the most splendid architecture, which were built for the celebration of THAT Mass. The Novus Ordo, on the other hand, has inspired such gems as the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. Let’s take a look…
neworleanschurches.com/stmaryasum/stmaryasum1s.jpg
neworleanschurches.com/stmaryasum/stmaryasum11s.jpg
and…
neworleanschurches.com/maryofangels/maryangels2s.jpg
neworleanschurches.com/maryofangels/maryangels1s.jpg
These two churches are located in the most Catholic city of New Orleans, Louisiana. Can you guys guess which one was built for the celebration of the Traditional Mass and which was built for the Novus Ordo Mass? :yup: That latter one really lifts my heart, mind, and soul heavenward!
Or how about a before/after pic, like the ones they show you on weight loss commercials? Let’s look at what kinds of improvements the Novus Ordo has made…
http://www.stjames-cathedral.org/history/images/1918 Interior.jpg
http://www.stjames-cathedral.org/history/images/12th ORD Mass.jpg
(In case you were wondering, it IS the same church–St. James Cathedral in Seattle). This is an example of what is known to some as a “proper implementation” of Vatican II. Gotta love noble simplicity!
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Missa_Solemnis
Guest
My mistake…I thought by your post you were supporting the statue.Perhaps they were trying to appeal to the gay culture, which is very prevalent in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles…
Only after re-reading it in the light of this post…did I realize you were being sarcastic.
Deepest apologies.
Now than I know the context…I can agree with you in that same humurous light…
Yes…Inculturation is a great gift from VII.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
You can follow this link to what I regard as more representative of a noble simplicity. It doesn’t mean penny pinching or cheap or bare:Yhttp://www.greatmirror.com/images/medium/005363.jpg
THIS one doesn’t look so heavenly…more like the “desert” look some prefer. Such is “noble simplicity”.
walsingham-church.org/
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Karin
Guest
that is beautiful also…thanks for sharing:thumbsup:
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JKirkLVNV
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Nothing is lacking in the NO Mass. Your mother’s position is perfectly reasonable. I think it’s great that you want to share something that is so special to you with her, but her position that she wants to attend the Mass that she “grew up” with is entirely understandable.My mom, whom I love very much, was raised a Methodist. She converted to Catholicism when she married my dad. I urged them to return to the Latin Mass and my mom kept getting very angry with me. I could not understand it because I really believe if my dad went he would love it. So one day I asked my mom why she wouldn’t even consider it? She replied: "I am perfectly happy with the Mass the way it is now. It is what I grew up with."
Says it all in a nutshell. I moved from that area, where I attended the Latin Mass every Sunday, 3 years ago. There isn’t one nearby me now … I attend the N.O. and it brings tears to my eyes because of what is lacking. I come away wondering if people understand that it is JESUS in that Tabernacle. I wonder if they would actually dress and act the way they do if they understood the impact of what is happening during Mass. So I pray and hope that soon God will bring that beautiful Mass to an area nearby … until then it is a sacrifice I offer up.
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Karin
Guest
it would seem that the mom grew up in the “old” mass not the NO.
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brotherhrolf
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JKirk, I think I know what you are talking about. My parish when I was in grade school built a new church around 1956. It was fairly modern for its time although it did have stained glass windows and a nice high altar. I went to see if I could find pictures of it:
http://www.olphla.org/image20.jpg
Same school building, same classrooms as I had when the school was built around 1964.
http://www.olphla.org/image35.jpg
Holy Guacamole Bullwinkle! I doesn’t even remotely resemble the “warehouse” church I grew up in! :bigyikes: They turned the choir loft into a “cry room”! There were three aisles dividing the church! I’m floored! There were two triangular stained glass windows with angels blowing trumpets on either side of the transept above the back and echoed again above the altar. This is a warehouse church but it doesn’t even remotely resemble the church I knew as a kid.
http://www.olphla.org/image20.jpg
Same school building, same classrooms as I had when the school was built around 1964.
http://www.olphla.org/image35.jpg
Holy Guacamole Bullwinkle! I doesn’t even remotely resemble the “warehouse” church I grew up in! :bigyikes: They turned the choir loft into a “cry room”! There were three aisles dividing the church! I’m floored! There were two triangular stained glass windows with angels blowing trumpets on either side of the transept above the back and echoed again above the altar. This is a warehouse church but it doesn’t even remotely resemble the church I knew as a kid.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Whenever I’ve gone to Mass at the Cathedral, the host tasted like a normal host. At my parish, we use whole wheat hosts.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
See, that’s the thing! They did this $^#&$*&% in BAPTIST churches!!! I remember the church my grandparents attended, my mother’s childhood church, built in a grand old style, with high old stained glass windows and polished wood. Then, they built an UGLY church that was 70’s modern. They outgrew that several years ago, sold it to an “interdenominational” community and do you know what they’re building now: a neo-classical building! I’ve seen new fundamentalist, evangelical churches that look more Catholic than a lot of Catholic Churches (no altar, obviously, and no way a statue at all, but you get what I’m saying). We’re doing a long, slow curve back to more classical looking buildings (because we finally admitted that modern was plain UGLY).
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netmilsmom
Guest
I agree!
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
Heck a look at most suburban civic centers (mostly built in the 60’s and 70’s) will tell you that! Downtown LA’s civic center, apart from City Hall is, well…it hurts the eyes.
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brotherhrolf
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Indeed, modern is just plain ugly. Churches are supposed to be a “sacred space” not utilitarian. That parish that I grew up in was split off to form a new parish in '65. We spent one year in the county playground gymnasium followed by the second year in a country club ball room. In ‘67 they built our new parish church with 10’ tall ceilings with the altar in the center and “wings” spreading around. I won’t even bother to post pictures because it is so pedestrian.
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palmas85
Guest
I grew up two blocks from St Marys and St Alphonsus.
Most people would be very surprised that there would be two such magnificent churches right across the street from each other. They have torn the St Thomas housing project down and replaced it with mixed low income and upper scale housing. St. Thomas was right beside St Marys and is partially famous I guess as being where the sister made famous in the film Dead Man Walking,s order was located. the Project eventually got so bad the sisters moved out, although they are still in the neighborhood and are active in the ministry at St Marys.
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arieh0310
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[Sarcasm] Oh come on, you are so negative. What’s so wrong with modernism? Can you honestly look at this and tell me it doesn’t scream Catholicism?? [/Sarcasm]
http://www.resurrection-catholic-parish.org/images/church_large.jpg
The picture is from Resurrection Catholic Parish in Tualatin, OR. Looks like where I used to work, wonder in the confessional in a cubical?
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LilyM
Guest
It’s called 60s and 70s suburbia … unfortunately a lot of churches then were built to more or less blend in with the surrounding neighbouring buildings (BAD BAD idea)
To be fair the photograph doesn’t appear to take in the whole building. Could be the back entrance of the Parish Hall for all we can see
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Anima_Christi
Guest
The St. Louis Cathedral in NOLA looks a little plain to me, actually.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
That would be Sr. Helen Prejean. My grandmother’s house was just off Washington on Constance and just sold for $285,000! My grandfather built that house in 1915 with his own hands and it stayed in the family until the late-70s until things went south. I know this is sorta off topic but I’ve always hoped someday I’d be able to move back to the Channel. So many funerals at Lietz-Eagan on Magazine, so many Irish wakes with po-boys from Parasol’s, so many Masses at St. Alphonsus, so many burials in St. Joseph #3. I expect I will be buried in the family tomb in St. Joseph #3. Please excuse the aside. I wax poetic for my beloved city.I grew up two blocks from St Marys and St Alphonsus.
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