What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

[Joysong]

Paramedicgirl:

Father Amorth, the head exorcist for Rome, says in his two books, that the baptismal prayers have been watered down to remove the prayers of exorcism. He says that he feels it was a mistake, because now the prayers are weakened.

Are you stating that you have personally read these books and seen this as Father’s actual words? Or was it alleged to have been stated by him in someone’s blog? I saw in this article that he did not downplay the exorcism in baptism:

VATICAN (CWNews.com)
Father Amorth said that the prayer of exorcism was widespread among Christians prior to the 4th century, when it was formally incorporated in the Latin rite. The prayer of exorcism is still used in Baptism, he pointed out. And the clergy should remain active in the fight against the devil, he said, quoting the teaching of the Second Vatican Council that Satan would remain active “until the end of the world.”

The video is full of edited clips that are not verified with an authentic source and are often promoted by websites that unfortunately will stoop to falsehood and taking things deliberately out of context in order to obtain their objectives of slandering the Church. It was pretty apparent in a recent thread where the poster pulled quotes from one of these websites and did not check it out. When the actual text was found in reliable sources, it was quickly observed that the website had deliberately altered it for the sole purpose of deception.

There is no date showing when the supposed actions took place, nor a source to determine the veracity of them. I have personally seen some of these on the websites I mentioned.

It is sad that one needs to promote their agenda of demeaning the Church’s liturgy by using the most scandalous and ISOLATED actions as though they were the norm of the universal Church. Can’t the traditionists do better than this? Do they really believe this is pleasing to God?

In addition, this seems to be in violation of a number of forum rules.

1. Mandatory threads on news reports of current events as well as the quoted works of others MUST be linked to a publicly available article/reference on the web.

Quotes from books must include standard reference information, including title, author,(and page number if possible). (Publisher, date, and preferably ISBN are helpful).

1. Posting material or linking to a site that promotes bigotry, prejudice, or hatred toward those of any race, religion, ethnicity, culture, or national origin
2. Posting material that can reasonably be construed as intended to proselytize Catholics
   [advocating TLM as opposed to N.O.]
3. Identifying individual parishes or clergy (including hierarchy) as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion without publicly available documentation that such has been alleged

Two cents.

 

[Karin]

The positive approach is always best. Yet, how does a generation know what it has lost and what it might regain unless it becomes aware of what is possible? How does one learn what one has lost unless one knows why the patrimony is there in the first place? Since I’m not Roman there are many things I do not know.

1. But it is easy to see that the priest facing East with the people is a holy act of worship. Facing West offers a different message.
2. Having architecture that and music and chant that lifts the heart toward God or presents God in our midst is far superior to silly slap happy secular music which carries us no where and does at times carry us downward. The Gregorian chant is by VCII records still the standard for RC Churches. Where is it.
3. By following the patterns of worship established by St. John’s Revelation and continual Church tradition one is transported to communion with the saints and much of what is done today does not.
4. The altar of sacrifice offers a much different message than the common table.

I have some sense as to how rapidly these changes occured and how disruptive they were to you. It is difficult to imagine how that happened. Will it all be reclaimed. I believe that much of it will but how long will it take? I believe that it will take far longer to reclaim it than it took to destroy it. I encourage you to reclaim your patrimony. Get on the Church councils. Don’t let another temple be destroyed to be replaced with an ugly useless building. Learn the ways of holiness and teach them to your children.

CDL

Thank you for this post…it is exaclty how many of us feel and you have expressed what many of us have not been able too!
I thank you for that…God Bless You!

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I would like to add a couple of things.

First, I am a traditionalist not because I’m stuck in a time warp but because what was developed over many centuries better expresses a sense of reverence than anything that has followed.

Second, I do not believe that the Church should separate from the bishop of Rome. Communion with that office is part of our holy tradition as well.

Third, I respect the greater honor we give to our priests than what is given in Protestant circles to their ministers. I hope that doesn’t change despite the fact that some priests have abused that trust. When a person has a concern with a priest or has an issue with a liturgical abuse priests should be treated with the same respect Jesus commands of us. The first step is a private conversation.

If you have a serious concern get involved with your parish council as well. Don’t gossip. Pray and act.

CDL

 

[Joysong]

Excellent, Gregory!

When a person has a concern with a priest or has an issue with a liturgical abuse priests should be treated with the same respect Jesus commands of us.

I think it would be a good idea to reflect on David’s words regarding respect, even though King Saul was obviously in error:

1 Samuel 24:6 He said to his men, “The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD’s anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the LORD.”

 

[Karin]

Excellent, Gregory!

I think it would be a good idea to reflect on David’s words regarding respect, even though King Saul was obviously in error:

1 Samuel 24:6 He said to his men, “The LORD forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the LORD’s anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the LORD.”

actually I think that is 1 Samuel 24:7 (SOURCE)

 

[Karin]

In addition, this seems to be in violation of a number of forum rules.

1. Mandatory threads on news reports of current events as well as the quoted works of others MUST be linked to a publicly available article/reference on the web.

Quotes from books must include standard reference information, including title, author,(and page number if possible). (Publisher, date, and preferably ISBN are helpful).

1. Posting material or linking to a site that promotes bigotry, prejudice, or hatred toward those of any race, religion, ethnicity, culture, or national origin
2. Posting material that can reasonably be construed as intended to proselytize Catholics
   [advocating TLM as opposed to N.O.]
3. Identifying individual parishes or clergy (including hierarchy) as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion without publicly available documentation that such has been alleged

Two cents.

WOW…I am so glad that you are up on the forum rules

Not to oppose error is to approve it and not to defend Truth is to suppress it; and, indeed, to neglect to confound evil men when we can do it is no less a sin than to encourage them."-Pope St. Felix III

 

[AquinaSavio]

Here is a link to a video that some might find interesting. It is about the changes to the Church, post Vatican II, and how they have affected us. It is about 45 minutes long. Be prepared to watch a priest do the limbo in Mass to demonstrate that we have tossed our belief in limbo. There is much more actual footage of real Masses. It makes you want to cry for all we have lost.

Thank you so much for that video…all I can say is: WOW.

 

[netmilsmom]

In addition, this seems to be in violation of a number of forum rules.

1. Mandatory threads on news reports of current events as well as the quoted works of others MUST be linked to a publicly available article/reference on the web.

Quotes from books must include standard reference information, including title, author,(and page number if possible). (Publisher, date, and preferably ISBN are helpful).

1. Posting material or linking to a site that promotes bigotry, prejudice, or hatred toward those of any race, religion, ethnicity, culture, or national origin
2. Posting material that can reasonably be construed as intended to proselytize Catholics
   [advocating TLM as opposed to N.O.]
3. Identifying individual parishes or clergy (including hierarchy) as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion without publicly available documentation that such has been alleged

Two cents.

The mods saw this video and moved it here.
The TC forum is for discussion of such.

Go to the top and read this forum’s rules as well.

The last entry says this…
Note:

Sedevacantism may be discussed in the Traditional Catholicism forum, but only in this forum. Please do not place discussions of the subject in other forums on the site. Thanks!

 

[Karin]

The mods saw this video and moved it here.
The TC forum is for discussion of such.

Go to the top and read this forum’s rules as well.

The last entry says this…
Note:

Sedevacantism may be discussed in the Traditional Catholicism forum, but only in this forum. Please do not place discussions of the subject in other forums on the site. Thanks!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_206.gif

 

[netmilsmom]

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_206.gif

I think that one of the blessings to having this forum is that the people who are into the changes of VII have been able to do just what they are doing here. Dismiss any information given by a group, not in union with Rome, with a simple, “We’re not allowed to talk about this.” or “I don’t need to listen to them.”

I would like to see a frank discussion on the points of the Video past the modernizing abuses in the Holy Mass displays. Tell me that the claims are invalid and tell me why. Coming in saying, I’m not watching this because it’s unreasonable is not a discussion. Tell me WHY it’s unreasonable, past the videos of the masses.

If one truly believes that the Sacraments are better, they should be able to dispute the claims made on this video.

Maybe the whole thing needs to be moved to Apologetics.

 

[netmilsmom]

I would like to add a couple of things.

First, I am a traditionalist not because I’m stuck in a time warp but because what was developed over many centuries better expresses a sense of reverence than anything that has followed.

Second, I do not believe that the Church should separate from the bishop of Rome. Communion with that office is part of our holy tradition as well.

Third, I respect the greater honor we give to our priests than what is given in Protestant circles to their ministers. I hope that doesn’t change despite the fact that some priests have abused that trust. When a person has a concern with a priest or has an issue with a liturgical abuse priests should be treated with the same respect Jesus commands of us. The first step is a private conversation.

If you have a serious concern get involved with your parish council as well. Don’t gossip. Pray and act.

CDL

I don’t feel this is gossip. Why shouldn’t it be open to discussion?
If there is something stated here that is wrong, tell us why. Give us the facts and shut it down.

If it can’t be discussed, then it grows bigger.
If it’s wrong, tell us why it’s wrong and that way we know.

But again, we shouldn’t gossip is not an answer. Give us a reason why this should not be discussed and corrected. That’s what these forums are about.

When someone comes into a thread stating “known facts” about Catholics that are off the wall, each one of us can correct it with documents from Rome and rubics. Why can’t we do that with this video?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Not opposing error is to approve it…and those who approve the postconciliar errors are anything but faithful sons and daughters.

But what the Church would call an error and what the producers of the video would call an error would be two different, two disctinct things. I’m not personally acquainted with anyone who supports the abuses depicted in the video. But then the video would have you to believe that the Pauline Rite is an abuse in and of itself. I stand by what I said.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

So what? They presented an admittedly biased film that accurately portrayed the state of a large segment of the Church today and gave their views as to why it happened. There were also some exagerations in the film as well as some errors. Do you advocate ignoring the truth that was there because the group that produced it was the SSPX or some other group and slanted the video their way? A lot of what they had in there was true Kirk and you know it. I don’t believe that one has to be a loyal son or daughter of the Church to make a statement about the condition of the Church and to point out the problems that it has, In fact someone who is totally and completely loyal, might be hesitant to point things out, even if they knew them to be wrong, wouldn’t you agree Kirk?

A lot of what they had in there was OLD, Palmas, it was like watching something out of a Nixon era news vault. No, I don’t advocate ignoring the truth, but there are other ways to go about it (witness Adoremus, for example). I advocate not giving assistance to schismatics in their attempt to sow the seeds of dissension among the faithful.

 

[Marilena]

Here is a link to a video that some might find interesting. It is about the changes to the Church, post Vatican II, and how they have affected us. It is about 45 minutes long. Be prepared to watch a priest do the limbo in Mass to demonstrate that we have tossed our belief in limbo. There is much more actual footage of real Masses. It makes you want to cry for all we have lost.

that video really astounded me to say the least. it breaks the heart to see the lack of reverence

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Pitifully, this has been moved to the TC forum and now will not be discussed with the people who need to. A big, yup that’s right from all of us, is not a discussion.

I agree that this is made by a group not in union with Rome but the problem is that no one discussed or disputed the facts of the Sacraments in this.

I wish someone could have told me that the film was wrong about them instead of just dismissing it because of who made it.

The film IS wrong. The Sacraments do what the Church intends for them to DO. The Church cannot fail in that regard at all. Our Mass is validly (AND licitly confected, something they cannot claim) and all the other sacraments are constitutionally adequate for the purpose they are intended.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

gather you have not watched it…sad…I guess you are ok with ALL that occurs and has occured in our Church?!

How do you make that leap in logic, that if one refuses to read or watch garbage from schismatics they are obviously Ok with problems in the Church? I wouldn’t assume if I were you, you know what they say about that.

 

[carol_marie]

Wow. This video makes me so sad. I can’t help but wonder… WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!!!

I would like to see a video of the other side though…surely there are many good things that the changes brought about?

maybe?

 

[Karin]

How do you make that leap in logic, that if one refuses to read or watch garbage from schismatics they are obviously Ok with problems in the Church? I wouldn’t assume if I were you, you know what they say about that.

If you will note…I did not assume…I asked a question of the poster… guess you are ok with ALL that occurs and has occured in our Church*?**!*
so lets not assume anything**

 

[netmilsmom]

The film IS wrong. The Sacraments do what the Church intends for them to DO. The Church cannot fail in that regard at all. Our Mass is validly (AND licitly confected, something they cannot claim) and all the other sacraments are constitutionally adequate for the purpose they are intended.

Somehow I knew that if a poster were going to come in and actually have a discussion, it would be you, my friend!

I have to ponder your words and take the kiddies to gym. I’ll be back!

 

[netmilsmom]

I would like to see a video of the other side though…surely there are many good things that the changes brought about?

maybe?

That would be GREAT!!!