What will provoke the next Ecumenical Council?

[catholic1seeks]

Uh yeah, it’s not about people thinking themselves more catholic than the pope but that’s a nice way to try dismiss valid opinions and questions from Catholics concerning a pope who says and does more and more scandalous stuff.

It’s all how you assess it, with respect to one’s own experiences and circumstances.

I would consider myself an orthodox Catholic, adhering to the teaching of the Catechism, and yet I don’t find Pope Francis to be scandalous at all. In fact, his emphases (pastoral care, simplicity of Gospel message, poverty, etc.) has intensified my faith and focused it more on Christ.

No Pope will satisfy every Catholic in every way, even every orthodox Catholic.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I still don’t understand the “walk back one.”

I never talked about walking back a council.

 

[Crocus]

Some synonyms:

arouse, produce, evoke, cause, give rise to, occasion, call forth, elicit, induce, excite, spark off, touch off, kindle, generate, engender, instigate, result in, lead to, bring on, precipitate, prompt, trigger; literarybeget

How about changing title to:

What will engender the next Ecumenical Council?

Suggests a more positive outlook and expectation.

 

[Vonsalza]

I still don’t understand the “walk back one.”

I never talked about walking back a council.

…this is getting pedantic…

And I never said you did. Reread the post. 60 or thereabouts, I think.

 

[dochawk]

Also the Novus Ordo Mass is ether reformed to be more traditional or suppressed completely

From those I’ve spoken to who have observed both the EF and the OF offered in Latin, they are hard to tell apart. In fact, most people seeing a Latin OF presume it was the EF.

The issue isn’t so much the form, but the lack of reverence with which it is all too often offered, as the filling between the guitar gang’s performances.

hawk

 

[Crusader30]

The correct way of saying the Novus Ordo Mass is so small that it is almost non existent.

The Church and the bishops just don’t want to fix the issues with the rubrics not being followed

 

[dochawk]

And how would surpassing the OF, or even changing it, change that problem?

It would be the EF that was then not followed correctly.

hawk

 

[pnewton]

There is so much fuzzy logic here, it is astounding. The whole appeal to made up statistics as common knowledge should serve as a warning to anyone tempted to drink of this mess. I do not know what the next Ecumenical Council will be, but I would bet all I own it will not be a reversal of Vatican II, anymore than any council has been called to reverse the previous council.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/232226/church-attendance-among-catholics-resumes-downward-slide.aspx

Catholic Church attendance was in decline in the United States before Vatican II. If anything, the decline lessened a little after, though not by much.

Second, for all the talk of modernism, it sure seems like a lot of people have no idea what it means. It does not mean modern or contemporary. Without a precise definition, the idea of modernism meaning anything new that is heresy, is nothing more than simply begging the question. It may make for good sound bites for those who are seeking to splinter the Church into factions, but it has zero use for meaningful discussion.

Third, I understand the opinion of the SSPX on the excommunication of AB Lefebvre and his illicitly ordained bishops may be rather slanted. After all, the Eastern Orthodox have a different view that the Catholic Church on the great schism, and every Protestant reformer had a different view on the Catholic Church to prompt their actions. However, St. John Paul believed he committed an act incurring automatic excommunication, and Pope Benedict did lift this excommunication, so the position of the Catholic Church on the matter seems secured.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Wandile:

You underestimate the level of confusion today. If you haven’t noticed we are in the worst crisis the church has ever been in. This is a fact testified to by emeninet bishops such as Bishop Athanasius Schneider.

Really? Do we have a near-majority if not an actual majority of bishops openly professing heresy about an absolute essential of.the faith - the very nature of Christ - and coming to physical fisticuffs about it as we had between St Nicholas and Arius?

Do we have two claimants to the Papacy, each supported by large groups of secular leaders, both issuing decrees, apponting Cardinals who nominated successors and so on, as we did for decades in the Western Schism?

Do we have huge numbers of the faithful not only splitting off from the Church but then turning around and killing and torturing the Catholics among whom they had formerly numbered themselves? We did during the Reformation.

Worse…

What we have is a church with historically low mass attendance, a dying monasticism, religious orders on their death beds, priests performing unspeakable abuses on the regular, a clergy that is said to be 2/3 gay, Nuns who reject their habits, vocations are at an all time low, churches are closing on the weekly, the sacramemt of confession has all but disappeared in many parishes, communion being offered to unrepentant adulterers and seemingly having papal approval, knowledge of the doctrines of the church is close to non-existeant for huge portions of the church, relativism has taken grip of the church…

Unlike the past where it was one major heresy or one major schism at a time , today it is multiple major heresies and multiple schisms. Pope St Pius X accurately identified modernism as the most dangerous heresy because it is the “synthesis of all heresies” as he called it.

Look at the number of separate anathemas the Council of Trent issued - there were/are many heresies grouped under the umbrella of protestantism. A lot of the modern attitudes condemned by St Pius X stem from a Reformation mindset, and are really nothing new.

A huge percentage of the population of Europe, over the course of a few decades - with the full approval of and at the instigation of their hitherto at least nominally Catholic priests and bishops - left the Catholic fold and began openly subscribing to these heresies. Talk about a sharp drop in Mass attendance! Talk about priests preaching heresy!

Consider Henry VIII - an openly adulterous king, even prior to his break with Rome, who was never refused Communion. After the break with Rome, virtually every SINGLE Catholic church, chapel and Abbey in England switched allegiances, over the course of a few years. Those that didn’t were despoiled, destroyed or sold to rich families. All of this shamefully condoned by all but a brave handful of the nation’s bishops. Entire religious orders were wiped out overnight.

Don’t get me started on the Popes of the time and their scandals …

 

[KATRINA_68]

I wish Mother Angelica was alive today. She defended the Church, and stood up for her Faith when some terrible things were going on, and spoke out the truth, in spite of criticism.

 

[catholic1seeks]

How about changing title to:

What will engender the next Ecumenical Council?

Suggests a more positive outlook and expectation.

At first I was defensive, because I thought you were simply being picky with my grammar/vocabulary.

But now I see it as being prophetic of sorts, for many on this thread are looking at today as legitimately “provoking” the next council in the negative sense ---- “scandals” by Pope Francis, post-Vatican II stuff, and so on.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I recommend watching the clip starting around the 22:00 minute mark. A few days ago, Tim Staples answered a question regarding the EF and Latin and Vatican 2:

If you click the PLAY button, it should automatically start around the moment where Tim gives the answer:

“…the entire world embraced having the Mass in the vernacular…”

Tim also makes the point that rather than causing the downward trend of Faith, as some falsely correlate, the vernacular helped to PREPARE for the onslaught of faith by governments throughout the world.