What would happen if JPII did this?

[Deacon2006]

Can 749 §3 No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless this is manifestly demonstrated.

Res ipsa loquitur.

John

Yes and to be fair

Canon 750

1. Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn Magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal Magisterium, which in fact is manifested by the common adherence of Christ’s faithful under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. All are therefore bound to avoid any contrary doctrines.
2. Furthermore, each and everything set forth definitively by the Magisterium of the Church regarding teaching on faith and morals must be firmly accepted and held; namely those things required for the holy keeping and faithful exposition of the deposit of faith; therefore, anyone who rejects propositions which are to be held definitively sets himself against the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Is the substance of the point that I was making

God Bless

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Any idea how to get a copy of the Commission’s report? I’ve been completely unable to find it, either online or from a bookstore.

I don’t know if the report has been made public. If you go to the link I posted, you can read what Comission members said was their consensus.

 

[Deacon2006]

NO OPENING TOWARD FEMALE DEACONS, THEOLOGIAN SAYS
VATICAN, Oct 17, 02 (CWNews.com) – The secretary of the International Theological Commission has issued a statement indicating that, contrary to earlier reports the group has not left the door open for the ordination of women as deacons.

On the contrary, Father Georges Cottier reports, the work of the International Theological Commission, which recently concluded a study on the topic, tends toward the conclusion that women cannot be ordained to the diaconate.

In an interview with the Roman news agency I Media earlier this month, Msgr. Roland Minnerath, a member of the Commission, said that the group’s report “does not exclude that we could have some future development” in the Church’s position regarding women and the diaconate. The French theologian had observed that any new development would have to come from the teaching magisterium rather than from theologians.

However, Father Cottier-- who is the theological of the pontifical household as well as secretary to the Commission-- emphasized that the group “had not concluded that any opening is possible regarding the ordination of female deacons.” On the contrary, he said, the theologians’ work had led toward the conclusion that women are not eligible for the diaconate.

Father Cottier acknowledged that the Commission did not reach a final verdict on the issue. He agreed with Msgr. Minnerath that “the magisterium must give the authoritative judgment” on the issue.

The International Theological Commission recently concluded an in-depth study of the diaconate. The group’s report will be used as the basis for a new document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

God Bless

 

[Crusader]

Deacon2006:

NO OPENING TOWARD FEMALE DEACONS, THEOLOGIAN SAYS
VATICAN, Oct 17, 02 (CWNews.com) – The secretary of the International Theological Commission has issued a statement indicating that, contrary to earlier reports the group has not left the door open for the ordination of women as deacons.

On the contrary, Father Georges Cottier reports, the work of the International Theological Commission, which recently concluded a study on the topic, tends toward the conclusion that women cannot be ordained to the diaconate.

In an interview with the Roman news agency I Media earlier this month, Msgr. Roland Minnerath, a member of the Commission, said that the group’s report “does not exclude that we could have some future development” in the Church’s position regarding women and the diaconate. The French theologian had observed that any new development would have to come from the teaching magisterium rather than from theologians.

However, Father Cottier-- who is the theological of the pontifical household as well as secretary to the Commission-- emphasized that the group “had not concluded that any opening is possible regarding the ordination of female deacons.” On the contrary, he said, the theologians’ work had led toward the conclusion that women are not eligible for the diaconate.

Father Cottier acknowledged that the Commission did not reach a final verdict on the issue. He agreed with Msgr. Minnerath that “the magisterium must give the authoritative judgment” on the issue.

The International Theological Commission recently concluded an in-depth study of the diaconate. The group’s report will be used as the basis for a new document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

God Bless

I wish JPII would slam the door once and for all…

 

[John_Higgins]

Crusader:

I wish JPII would slam the door once and for all…

Why? I’m serious.

John

 

[Crusader]

John Higgins:

Why? I’m serious.

John

HUGE amounts of resources are wasted in debating the concept of female priests and deacons.

I wish JPII would come out in very plain language and proclaim that never is ever going to happen within the Church.

 

[Deacon2006]

John Higgins:

Why? I’m serious.

John

God reserves the sacerdotal priesthood for men. The sacerdotal priesthood exists in three degrees bishop, priest, and deacon. The Pope is under no obligation to issue clarifying dogmatic pronouncements every time a dissenter refuses to accept manifest and historical teachings of the church. The first time the church ruled that women by nature were incapable of receiving sacerdotal priesthood as deacons was I believe at Nicea.

God Bless

 

[Catholic2003]

Father Cottier acknowledged that the Commission did not reach a final verdict on the issue. He agreed with Msgr. Minnerath that “the magisterium must give the authoritative judgment” on the issue.

According to the news report, it hasn’t been settled yet. I guess we will have to wait for the forthcoming CDF document.

 

[George2]

To my knowledge individual bishops may prohibit female acolytes. I don’t think it is a big doctrinal question but more a liturgical one. Anyone who leaves based on that has deeper problems.

I have no problem with female altar servers, though I recognize it as problematic. Many do. Many altar boys are inspired to be priests. If the boys of the parish do not see the mystery of the mass close up they might be less likely to consider that vocation.

Lastly, on the issue of women priests, you really should not even be bringing that up in a public forum. To do so is really disrespectful as it is a closed issue.

Roma locuta, causa est finis. Rome has spoken, the issue is closed.

It is not discriminatory in the least to women to continue Christ’s tradition. He did not reserve this vocation for women. There is absolutely nothing in scripture or tradition that allows for women priests and any traditions of deaconesses are ancient or apocyrphal and have been discontinued by the Church or never used.

I am a lay Catholic and a man. A lay woman, a religious or a priest are my equal under Church law. That I am under the authority of my parish priest who answers to his Bishop who answers to the Pope does not contradict that. The church is at once both hierarchical and communal and when people tell me that the Churrch oppresses women, I just think of the powerful Catholic women in my parish who bow their heads with me in obedience to our common Lord and Master.

pax vobiscum

 

[Crusader]

Deacon2006:

God reserves the sacerdotal priesthood for men. The sacerdotal priesthood exists in three degrees bishop, priest, and deacon. The Pope is under no obligation to issue clarifying dogmatic pronouncements every time a dissenter refuses to accept manifest and historical teachings of the church. The first time the church ruled that women by nature were incapable of receiving sacerdotal priesthood as deacons was I believe at Nicea.

God Bless

You’re talking out of your hat, “Deacon.”

You simply don’t know for certain if women can, or cannot be deacons within the Church. It’s certainly not likely, but you’re not telling the truth when you say for certain that women cannot be deacons.

I didn’t suggest the Pope was under some sort of “obligation” to do anything – I simply wish he would.

Your comments about Nicea are flat-out incorrect.

 

[Crusader]

George2:

To my knowledge individual bishops may prohibit female acolytes. I don’t think it is a big doctrinal question but more a liturgical one. Anyone who leaves based on that has deeper problems.

I have no problem with female altar servers, though I recognize it as problematic. Many do. Many altar boys are inspired to be priests. If the boys of the parish do not see the mystery of the mass close up they might be less likely to consider that vocation.

Lastly, on the issue of women priests, you really should not even be bringing that up in a public forum. To do so is really disrespectful as it is a closed issue.

Roma locuta, causa est finis. Rome has spoken, the issue is closed.

It is not discriminatory in the least to women to continue Christ’s tradition. He did not reserve this vocation for women. There is absolutely nothing in scripture or tradition that allows for women priests and any traditions of deaconesses are ancient or apocyrphal and have been discontinued by the Church or never used.

I am a lay Catholic and a man. A lay woman, a religious or a priest are my equal under Church law. That I am under the authority of my parish priest who answers to his Bishop who answers to the Pope does not contradict that. The church is at once both hierarchical and communal and when people tell me that the Churrch oppresses women, I just think of the powerful Catholic women in my parish who bow their heads with me in obedience to our common Lord and Master.

pax vobiscum

Just a quick reminder that the ministry of instituted acolyte is open only to males in the Catholic Church…

You also raise an excellent point about even discussing the non-issue of “female priests.” I must say however that JPII could have been just a bit more direct and clear-cut in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis…

 

[Iohannes]

Crusader:

What would happen if Pope JPII released an encyclical that:

1.) Re-confirmed that there will never be ordained female priests?

2.) Infallibly proclaimed that there will never be ordained female deacons (not to be confused with the non-clerical deaconesses of the past)?

3.) Eliminated all females and those men would could never qualify to be a priest or deacon from being altar servers?

Would the Church lose or gain members?

Pope John Paul II at first resisted Female altar boys.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2INAES.HTM

1. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.[27]

But later capitulated in 1994.

INAESTIMABILE DONUM was the Redemptionis Sacramentum of yesterday. No one virtually enforced that document when it came out.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Crusader:

Nix. The single reason I dislike the use of female altar servers is because they take-up slots that should go to men or boy who might just be fostering a vocation to the priesthood or permanent diaconate.

It’s possible that you’re right. I must say, I think that what is required to increase vocations is for more people to take as great an interest in it as you

seem to do, most esp. parents. As for HH JPII making it binding that women may not be priests, my reading of it is that he already did…and yet we’re still discussing it. It’s rather an interesting sight: people who want to be in authority, yet cannot accept authority.

 

[Deacon2006]

Crusader:

You’re talking out of your hat, “Deacon.”

You simply don’t know for certain if women can, or cannot be deacons within the Church. It’s certainly not likely, but you’re not telling the truth when you say for certain that women cannot be deacons

Your comments about Nicea are flat-out incorrect.

I have reviewed my words and feel that the use of sacerdotal priesthood might be too strong and confusing because it may lead some to conclude that I believe deacons are in some way equal to presbyter, which I surely do not, however it was at Nicea that the following was said.

Canon XIX… With regard to the deaconesses who hold this position we remind [church leaders] that they possess no ordination, but are to be reckoned among the laity in every respect.”

Clearly my statement that deaconesses are incapable of receiving ordination is obviously not “flat-out incorrect” even if you wish to dispute the context of the canon.

The church in its council teaching and ordinary teaching has maintained that the term deaconesses is akin to a blessing and or consecrated life not unlike the widows of old and not one of ordination as we know it.

“This sacrament (Holy Orders) configures the recipient to Christ by a special grace of the Holy Spirit, so that he may serve as Christ’s instrument for his Church. By ordination one is enabled to act as a representative of Christ, Head of the Church, in his triple office of priest, prophet, and king.” CCC 1581 Women cannot be priests because they cannot recieve Holy Orders which is the exact same reason why they cannot be deacons.

My alignment with the teaching of the church does not require me to equivocate every dissenters speculation into the truth ordinarily proclaimed by the church. So yes I openly proclaim that only men can be ordained deacons because the church in its historical and ordinary teachings declares that only men can be ordained as deacons.

God Bless

 

[Crusader]

Deacon2006:

…My alignment with the teaching of the church does not require me to equivocate every dissenters speculation into the truth ordinarily proclaimed by the church. So yes I openly proclaim that only men can be ordained deacons because the church in its historical and ordinary teachings declares that only men can be ordained as deacons.

God Bless

Rather than rely on the Church, you have reached your own conclusion. That’s not very Catholic. While it’s highly doubtful that women will ever be ordained as deacons within the Church, the Church has not 100% precluded the possibility at this point in time.

So rather than “openly proclaim” your opinion, please report the actual status of this issue within the Church…

 

[Deacon2006]

Crusader:

Rather than rely on the Church, you have reached your own conclusion. That’s not very Catholic. While it’s highly doubtful that women will ever be ordained as deacons within the Church, the Church has not 100% precluded the possibility at this point in time.

So rather than “openly proclaim” your opinion, please report the actual status of this issue within the Church…

I say men can only be ordained to be deacons because the church says men can only be ordained as deacons. That is the historical law and teaching of the church for 2000 years.

Countless magisterial documents, including Council documents, which normally are considered infallible in their teaching, always say that authentic deaconal ordination is limited to men, why then must you cast dispersions about my character for spreading the teachings of the church?

Since no credible theologian, magisterial document or council has ever concluded that women could now or have ever been validly ordained as deacons, why the constant speculation about it? It is the dissenter that unashamedly speculates about the ordinary truths of the church, it is that form of persistent doubt that seems to me to be anti-catholic.

God Bless

 

[Iohannes]

There were women deaconess, but here is the thing:

-They were non-ordained.
-had no liturgical role.
-they were simply laywomen with a special title.
-helped baptized women, IIRC when baptisms were done in the nude.

There was never any ordination of women deaconess, and again had NO LITURGICAL ROLE!

 

[puzzleannie]

Iohannes:

There were women deaconess, but here is the thing:

-They were non-ordained.
-had no liturgical role.
-they were simply laywomen with a special title.
-helped baptized women, IIRC when baptisms were done in the nude.

There was never any ordination of women deaconess, and again had NO LITURGICAL ROLE!

the Church used to have armies of single lay women who performed all kinds of apostolates in service of the church, from education, nursing, evangelization, social services, visiting the sick, sacramental preparation, charitable outreach of all kinds. They were called religious sisters. Before we think about reviving the concept of “deaconess” we ought to figure out if we can what happened to all the nuns, and ascertain if there is a lesson in history for us about women in service and ministry in the Church.

 

[Iohannes]

puzzleannie:

the Church used to have armies of single lay women who performed all kinds of apostolates in service of the church, from education, nursing, evangelization, social services, visiting the sick, sacramental preparation, charitable outreach of all kinds. They were called religious sisters. Before we think about reviving the concept of “deaconess” we ought to figure out if we can what happened to all the nuns, and ascertain if there is a lesson in history for us about women in service and ministry in the Church.

Exactly.

 

[Crusader]

Deacon2006:

I say men can only be ordained to be deacons because the church says men can only be ordained as deacons. That is the historical law and teaching of the church for 2000 years.

Countless magisterial documents, including Council documents, which normally are considered infallible in their teaching, always say that authentic deaconal ordination is limited to men, why then must you cast dispersions about my character for spreading the teachings of the church?

Since no credible theologian, magisterial document or council has ever concluded that women could now or have ever been validly ordained as deacons, why the constant speculation about it? It is the dissenter that unashamedly speculates about the ordinary truths of the church, it is that form of persistent doubt that seems to me to be anti-catholic.

God Bless

Tap-dance all you want but the following comment you made in posting #54 is simply not sustainable:

“So yes I openly proclaim that only men can be ordained deacons.”

You lack both the authority and the knowledge to make such a comment. The Church has not said for certain whether there can be female deacons. Comments like your own only provide ammo to the sexist/feminist camp because they contravene what the Church itself has proclaimed.