What would you do if you think your mother is a sociopath?

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“Only emotional extrication”…well, yes, easier than if you had to get a restraining order, but not by an order of magnitude, or anything. You still have an elephantine portion to swallow.

If someone threatens suicide, they need to be directed towards mental health treatment, rather than having the thinking pattern enabled through reward. Even if she were truly suicidal–being a narcissicist does not prevent you ever having true thoughts of suicide, after all–you’re still doing exactly the right thing by refusing to reward her threats of suicide. What she does with your response is out of your hands.
For years and years, she told me that the only thing that kept her from going through with it was that I told her I would never forgive her if she did it (successfully or not). She said that it was only my relationship with her that kept her alive. It was only recently I recognized this for the BS that it is and started calling her on it.
Analyzing my own actions over the last decade, I am coming to realize that I began this work of extrication a long time ago, even while I still held out hope that maybe she might change one day, not due to my own efforts, but due to God answering my prayers. Now I realize that God can only heal us if we want Him to and she does not want to change. She has just changed tactics, and broadened her targets to include my eldest daughter, whose very existence is threatening to her, because my eldest daughter is the same age as my niece, whom my mother adopted. Thus far, my daughter has been too young to consciously experience being the target, but I have noticed in the past year evidence that she perceives it now, but doesn’t know how to articulate it. That TERRIFIES me and I plan to have a conversation with my husband this weekend once he is back in town. I may be unwilling to protect myself, but I will do what needs to be done to protect my children.
 
I’m also reading the *Narcissists Suck *blog and it is amazing. Plus the author is a Christian! I think I will spend days reading this, it is so helpful.
I just wish the author had kept the site updated.

😦

It’s so important.
 
For years and years, she told me that the only thing that kept her from going through with it was that I told her I would never forgive her if she did it (successfully or not). She said that it was only my relationship with her that kept her alive. It was only recently I recognized this for the BS that it is and started calling her on it.
Analyzing my own actions over the last decade, I am coming to realize that I began this work of extrication a long time ago, even while I still held out hope that maybe she might change one day, not due to my own efforts, but due to God answering my prayers. Now I realize that God can only heal us if we want Him to and she does not want to change. She has just changed tactics, and broadened her targets to include my eldest daughter, whose very existence is threatening to her, because my eldest daughter is the same age as my niece, whom my mother adopted. Thus far, my daughter has been too young to consciously experience being the target, but I have noticed in the past year evidence that she perceives it now, but doesn’t know how to articulate it. That TERRIFIES me and I plan to have a conversation with my husband this weekend once he is back in town. I may be unwilling to protect myself, but I will do what needs to be done to protect my children.
Considering that people with antisocial personality disorders can get vindictive if they are confronted with the truth, I think cutting off contact to protect your children is very wise.

As your daughter goes through life, she’ll undoubtedly be confronted by people who use passive-aggression, indirect aggression, emotional undermining, and all sorts of other manipulations in order to control her. You’ll be in a good position to help her identify these tactics and to understand the difference between treating people well and doing what they want.
 
Ringel, I understand what you’re saying, but all therapists are not equal. When I was in college, most of the atheists were psychology majors. It was a standing joke among the non-psych majors that the psychs had chosen their major areas because they all needed to be psycho-analyzed. I certainly hope that’s changed! I’ve seen instances where secular therapists have compounded the problem because they’ve not honored the importance of faith in our decision making and in our ultimate ability to know peace.

I believe that, in most cases, some therapist is better than none at all. However, there is such a difference between the secular world and that of a practicing Catholic who’s trying sincerely to grow in his faith, as well as in his ability to solve his emotional problems, that I even more firmly believe that we should try to find a Catholic therapist.

I think our chances of resolution are greater with a decent devout Catholic therapist than with a brilliant non-Catholic therapist who doesn’t understand, nor care about, our Catholic perspective. When a person seeks therapy, he wants to deal with upsetting issues within the framework of his belief system. His goal is thwarted if the therapist thinks that much of his belief system is unimportant and, therefore, not a valid concern “for dealing in the real world.” OUR real world MUST include our Catholic faith if we’re to move forward emotionally and spiritually; both are imperative for lasting healing.
 
Ringel, I understand what you’re saying, but all therapists are not equal. When I was in college, most of the atheists were psychology majors. It was a standing joke among the non-psych majors that the psychs had chosen their major areas because they all needed to be psycho-analyzed. I certainly hope that’s changed! I’ve seen instances where secular therapists have compounded the problem because they’ve not honored the importance of faith in our decision making and in our ultimate ability to know peace.

I believe that, in most cases, some therapist is better than none at all. However, there is such a difference between the secular world and that of a practicing Catholic who’s trying sincerely to grow in his faith, as well as in his ability to solve his emotional problems, that I even more firmly believe that we should try to find a Catholic therapist.

I think our chances of resolution are greater with a decent devout Catholic therapist than with a brilliant non-Catholic therapist who doesn’t understand, nor care about, our Catholic perspective. When a person seeks therapy, he wants to deal with upsetting issues within the framework of his belief system. His goal is thwarted if the therapist thinks that much of his belief system is unimportant and, therefore, not a valid concern “for dealing in the real world.” OUR real world MUST include our Catholic faith if we’re to move forward emotionally and spiritually; both are imperative for lasting healing.
Any therapist worth paying isn’t there to judge the patient’s value system. He or she is there to help that person work through issues ON HIS TERMS, not the therapists. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but such a person should not be in the psychology realm at all. Even the most convicted atheist should in theory, be able to work with a person of any faith, or no faith. The only problem I can see is if the patient was having stigmata or visions of Mary - then things might get a little dicey…

The thing that worries me is that people will wait to go into counseling until they can find a Catholic therapist, and those are scarcer than hen’s teeth. I think good therapists are out there, and people should not hesitate to use them. Of course if a therapist is telling you that any aspect of your belief system is WRONG, then leave and shake the dust off your feet!
 
Any therapist worth paying isn’t there to judge the patient’s value system. He or she is there to help that person work through issues ON HIS TERMS, not the therapists. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but such a person should not be in the psychology realm at all. Even the most convicted atheist should in theory, be able to work with a person of any faith, or no faith. The only problem I can see is if the patient was having stigmata or visions of Mary - then things might get a little dicey…

The thing that worries me is that people will wait to go into counseling until they can find a Catholic therapist, and those are scarcer than hen’s teeth. I think good therapists are out there, and people should not hesitate to use them. Of course if a therapist is telling you that any aspect of your belief system is WRONG, then leave and shake the dust off your feet!
Sometimes a pastor or the local chancery office knows therapists who, although not Catholic, are still very capable when it comes to treating patients who live according to Catholic teaching. Conversely, just because someone is attached to a Catholic therapy group does not mean that the local bishop has put an imprimatur on everything that comes out of that person’s mouth. Therapy and pastoral direction aren’t interchangeable.
 
This is her self-confessed list of issues. My list of her issues would be at least double in length. My husband does not believe that she actually feels any real emotions. He calls them “crocodile tears”. He says that even her sadness or her rage seems fake and put-on for effect. So I don’t know. I cannot possibly ever know what goes on in her heart, because she is also a liar and a self-aggrandizer.
I have been reading and researching non-stop today. My kids are having a sick day today, so they are resting and watching PBS while I read like crazy. I am starting to find more evidence by the hour that I am dealing with a real piece of work.
Keep in mind that her culpability isn’t a question you need to answer in order to conclude that you need to cut off contact with her. Her culpability is something you can allow the Lord to decide. You only need to discern whether you can ever hope for her to be reliable, whether she can realisticallly be expected to become a safe person for you or your family to be around. You can hope with all your heart that she is to blame for none of it, you can forgive everything she has ever done, and yet still conclude quite rightly that it would be wrong of you to continue to have contact with her. Her culpability for her past and the question of whether it is reasonable to trust her in the future are two things that are really quite separate questions.
 
Keep in mind that her culpability isn’t a question you need to answer in order to conclude that you need to cut off contact with her. (…) Her culpability for her past and the question of whether it is reasonable to trust her in the future are two things that are really quite separate questions.
Goodness, this never even crossed my mind. Because I keep thinking about my father’s culpability as the main reason for cutting him off, while at the same time I am aware that I cut him off because I couldn’t deal with him anymore. But I keep confusing the two, especially when people ask about the situation and I start justifying myself. Excellent insight EJ. Keep them coming. I hope that the OP is finding this helpful.
 
Thus far, my daughter has been too young to consciously experience being the target, but I have noticed in the past year evidence that she perceives it now, but doesn’t know how to articulate it. That TERRIFIES me and I plan to have a conversation with my husband this weekend once he is back in town. I may be unwilling to protect myself, but I will do what needs to be done to protect my children.
I haven’t read hardly any of the posts in this thread but I implore you not to underestimate the psychological and emotional damage that can be inflicted upon you children by interactions with your mother.

If she engages in things like the ‘double bind’ (look it up), random manipulations with guilt or whatever works, etc the impact on children is severe. They don’t have the ability to recognize or process that what is going on is wrong and even if they do they don’t have the ability to process why it’s wrong and don’t have the ability to mentally and emotionally separate themselves so they are not impacted.

I grew up as a basket case because my mother was extremely manipulative and very sick mentally/psychologically. She didn’t intend to be evil or harm her children but I was severely harmed by being exposed to her behavior on a daily basis, driven crazy because she would deny what she did and I wasn’t old enough to process that… It drove me crazy.

It wasn’t her fault as she grew up in a crazy household herself, but the impact happened to me nontheless. It still has an impact on me to some extent to this day and I am in my mid 40’s. Fortunately she changed as she got older, went into therapy (the first few years she became even that much MORE manipulative and evil as she used therapy to learn how to better perfect her ‘craft’ if you will. Eventually, after I was all grown up and a basket case, she then got some insight into the fact that she was evil and manipulative and it was wrong and started to change. But that didn’t do me or my younger sisters any good. The damage was done.

Your a mom. Protect your kids. I know you will, just saying that to reinforce your resolve to do so.

God Bless,
Bill
 
This is a very interesting topic. The checklists online do not address this very well. Kind of like depression sites do the same. they get so generic with their terminology that you might miss it…
 
Goodness, this never even crossed my mind. Because I keep thinking about my father’s culpability as the main reason for cutting him off, while at the same time I am aware that I cut him off because I couldn’t deal with him anymore. But I keep confusing the two, especially when people ask about the situation and I start justifying myself. Excellent insight EJ. Keep them coming. I hope that the OP is finding this helpful.
Mainly it helps with the self-accusation that you are “not a forgiving person” or the sociopath’s likely accusation that you are “you think you’re better than me, but you’re not” or “you’re just like me, you just won’t admit it” or “sheesh, I thought you were a Christian, but I guess you’re not the forgiving sort” or “yeah, sure, punish me…just like everybody else in my life.”

This accusations are all wrong because** the decision to cut off social contact is not about being vindictive**. If you were a fellow sociopath and you wanted to be vindictive, simply cutting off contact isn’t what you’d do. No, first you’d have to give in to the temptation to get back at them, to beat the b*****d at their own game on the way out the door: set them up to get thrown in jail or lose their job or you’d try to manipulate them better than they manipulate you or take some of their stuff because you deserve it or something preposterous like that! (Not that everyone who’d let themselves try to beat a sociopath at their own game is a sociopath, but that a true sociopath could hardly be expected to do anything else.) Neither does cutting off contact exclude coming to a point where you can let go of the past and wish the person no harm. It will probably make that day come sooner! Forgiveness comes easier when the offending behavior is not ongoing.

Cutting off contact, rather, is about keeping safe from an unreasonable and unnecessasry threat of harm that the person poses to you, it is about making a realistic assessment about whether a person belongs in a particular position of trust, and it is about denying someone a near occasion of sin. It is about taking the most direct and effective route to stopping offending behavior.

When it comes to dealing with sociopaths, it takes awhile to realize that you can separate the person’s extremely low likelihood of amending their behavior from the question of whether or not their are culpable for that behavior. That is a distinction a sociopath does not want you to make, because they get power by eliciting pity! It takes awhile to realize that they don’t have a good grip on the reality of their own situation and don’t feel a need to tell you the truth about it when they do. All that matters, though, is making a realistic assessment of what good can come out of contact, and at what risk.

To go back to my bear analogy–you don’t keep a bear because you feel sorry for the bear. A person who keeps a bear but isn’t up to it is probably going to get themselves mauled and so get the bear euthanized. If you’re going to keep a bear, it is because the option of freeing the bear isn’t possible and because you have the skills and facilities to keep the bear safely. Otherwise, you just give the bear room to be a bear or hope for the bear’s sake that someone with the right skills steps in, because you can’t…and if the bear has already mauled you, you probably can’t do that work even if you are the greatest bear expert ever born, because the bear has no respect for you. You don’t get into whether its the bear’s fault that it is the way it is. You just reconcile yourself to the sad truth that the situation is what it is, and act accordingly. Whose fault it is could not matter less.

These are very sad situations to go through. Letting go of the temptation to blame anyone really helps, though, I think, even where blame is richly deserved. Getting to safety makes that easier, not harder.
 
Easter Joy,

thank you for this.

Funny how yesterday I got involved on this thread and the *Narcissists Suck *blog was recommended. I found both very helpful. On the same day I phoned an old friend who cares about me and means well and really hopes I will sort things out with my father. Whenever we speak she brings it up and makes a comment about forgivness, making an effort when it comes to family, etc. I normally get very upset by that although I know her heart is in the right place. Yesterday I Iet her speak and I just said that I am lucky I got away from the freak when I did. The conversation did not upset me one bit. I understand that most people don’t get it and that it is useless to try and explain yet again, since i explained my situation so many times before. I am ready to just live with this and not expect understanding. I think that this is now possible for me because I let the bear go after a lifetime of trying to tame him. I have tried really hard and finally realised that I am not equipped to deal with my bear. I don’t wish him any harm, but am not willing to expose myself to his paws anymore. I have never known such peace in my life. I must admit that I am tempted to invoke sympathy from other people, but am getting better about it and when an opportunity arises to tell them my tale I refrain from it.

I need to go through these posts again. So much to think about.
 
Please try to find a counselor who is familiar with narcissistic personality disorder and Borderline personality disorder. Also there is a group called bpdcentral that offers member support and advice about dealing with a person like your mother. There is also a book called “When You and Your Mother Can’t be Friends”. Knowledge is power when facing such a person and you need to arm yourself. Your mother most likely keeps you in FOG which stands for Fear, Obligation and Guilt. Seriously you need to read as much as you can about dealing with a Narcissist because they do not think like most mothers and they can keep you off balance. You may never know the “why” of what they do but you do need to protect yourself from emotional abuse. If you care about yourself at all please continue on your journey to emotional health and safety. It is OK and correct for you to protect yourself even if it meand limited contact or even no contact. Boundaries must be set and there should be consequences for crossing them. I have been where you are and there is a light at the end. It is also very helpful to discuss this with your priest. I wish you God’s blessing on your journey!
One last thing, pray for your mom since she needs it desparately in this livetime and for the next.
 
Any therapist worth paying isn’t there to judge the patient’s value system. He or she is there to help that person work through issues ON HIS TERMS, not the therapists. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but such a person should not be in the psychology realm at all. Even the most convicted atheist should in theory, be able to work with a person of any faith, or no faith. The only problem I can see is if the patient was having stigmata or visions of Mary - then things might get a little dicey…

The thing that worries me is that people will wait to go into counseling until they can find a Catholic therapist, and those are scarcer than hen’s teeth. I think good therapists are out there, and people should not hesitate to use them. Of course if a therapist is telling you that any aspect of your belief system is WRONG, then leave and shake the dust off your feet!
You got it. A quality therapist practicing ethically follows the very first principle as you say “meet them on their terms” or “meet the client where they are.” An atheist therapist will honor a client’s religious beliefs and if they are not they are practicing unethically. Such a therapist couldn’t be described as “brilliant” because their practice is faulty, even on a foundational level.

I am Catholic and can self-identify as such if I believe it will serve the client. I have worked with the impaired elderly in the past and have alleviated their guilt over missing Mass by telling them that due to their health and age they are except from the obligation. That’s one example how a secular therapist (which I guess you could call me) has used Catholicism.

BTW- I am saying “secular” as I don’t bill myself as a “Catholic-Therapist”. I can work with anybody regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

I have also looked at Catholictherapists.com online and some of these guys aren’t licensed and/or do not have the proper education or training. Now let me tell you, you should avoid non-licensed therapists like the plague as they have no professional accountability and are under no overarching ethical mandates.

Now the site may have some great therapist too. I’m just speaking to some I have seen.

And by all means, if you have access to a defined Catholic therapist then go for it. I would speak to them first and check reviews as you would with any therapist.
 
Easter Joy,

thank you for this.

Funny how yesterday I got involved on this thread and the *Narcissists Suck *blog was recommended. I found both very helpful. On the same day I phoned an old friend who cares about me and means well and really hopes I will sort things out with my father. Whenever we speak she brings it up and makes a comment about forgivness, making an effort when it comes to family, etc. I normally get very upset by that although I know her heart is in the right place. Yesterday I Iet her speak and I just said that I am lucky I got away from the freak when I did. The conversation did not upset me one bit. I understand that most people don’t get it and that it is useless to try and explain yet again, since i explained my situation so many times before. I am ready to just live with this and not expect understanding. I think that this is now possible for me because I let the bear go after a lifetime of trying to tame him. I have tried really hard and finally realised that I am not equipped to deal with my bear. I don’t wish him any harm, but am not willing to expose myself to his paws anymore. I have never known such peace in my life. I must admit that I am tempted to invoke sympathy from other people, but am getting better about it and when an opportunity arises to tell them my tale I refrain from it.

I need to go through these posts again. So much to think about.
To belabor the analogy, I think this kind of situation is actually the hardest for the people who are in all other respects the best at dealing with bears. When you are otherwise quite good at dealing with manipulative or strong-willed or otherwise difficult people, that is when it is the hardest to say of the one you have known the longest and the best, “Nope. Not this one. I give him his own range, and good luck to everybody who has to walk it.”

I’m so happy to hear you are at peace with at least one of your difficult people. I don’t blame you about showing your bear scars once in awhile. We all have our war stories, we all tell them from the perspective of our own army, and that is OK.

As for your friend, it is worth reminding her that forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. Sometimes reconciliation–that is, returning the offender to a position of trust and rebuilding a new relationship-- is not the prudent course of action. Certainly tries to force a reconciliation can get in the way of forgiveness, but especially if we mistakenly think the two are the same thing! Stick to your guns on that one!

Once again: Kudos to you! 👍
 
Once again: Kudos to you! 👍
Thank you.

My friend is a Christian and I find that often we confuse forgivness and reconciliation. I learned this distinction here on CAF, and it took me a while to understand it and even longer to accept it. I come from a culture where family ties are idolised and people have the attitude that all kind of BS must be put up with in the name of the family. Luckily I’ve been away from home for long enough to know better.
 
what can I do about my loneliness and the hole in my heart that only a mother could fill … Mary is what Jesus gives to us to heal those wounds inflicted upon us by our mothers. “Behold, your mother,” Jesus says. But how do I unlock that? How do I learn to receive that gift? How do I go to the perfect mother without fear of condemnation? How do I learn to love her? weeping so hard right now, this hurts so much)
I pray to Mary to adopt me. :o
This is what torments me so. What DOES it look like to honor an emotionally and spiritually abusive (at one time, physically abusive) parent? What does forgiveness feel like even, in this situation?
I have a narcissistic father. I honor him by praying for him when I muster the strength for that. I forgive him by not wanting him to spend an eternity in Hell - which means, I pray he experiences a true repentance that will completely transform him.

No need to engage with him emotionally before that happens, though. I am able to have superficial contact with him, because he tends to ignore me and my family now and only sucks the life and soul out of his girlfriend.
Thanks ringil.

And yet my relationship with her is psychologically damaging me, and could potentially damage my children one day.
This is what matters. Your responsibility is to your children.
Thank you.

My friend is a Christian and I find that often we confuse forgiveness and reconciliation.
Very true. And very dangerous. Something manipulative people abuse.
 
Very true. And very dangerous. Something manipulative people abuse.
Confusing forgiveness and reconciliation was not a mistake that Our Lord made, either:
But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well. John 2:24-25
 
I am so happy people are suggesting that people stay away from the abuser. I don’t think abusers are going to change no matter what we do.

My husband and children would have been so much better off if I had concentrated more on them instead of trying to appease my sociopath father, who was never satisfied with anything I did. The issue was that extended family were telling me I should “take care of Dad”.
 
Here is one of my favorite blogs by a daughter of a narcissistic mother. She’s a practicing Catholic and a loving mother of five. She has no contact with her parents, partly because her mother had started playing mind games with the children and was even willing to expose the little girl to sexual abuse just to keep the peace with family friends:

The Hardest Battle

You will find there a list of other blogs by people whose parents also have personality disorders.

Sending hugs, support, and prayers your way.
 
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