What you should know!

[jmm08]

uniChristian:

Could you please advise me where I should turn in my bible to read about praying to Mary and praying the rosary, I cant find it anywhere.

Matthew 7:14-20 (Jesus speaking) How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.**

Matthew 7:14-20 explains how to discover and evaluate additional information (not yet in the Bible). I am in RCIA (learning about the Catholic Church). How I got there was that I had to study and think a bit. Who did I think were the very best examples of Christians who had touched my life? For me, I had a few answers. I think for each person who would ask that, they could come up with their own answer. My answers led me to look further into the Roman Catholic Church. The RCIA instructors have not taught very much at all about Marian devotion. They haven’t even taught us how to pray a “Hail Mary” yet. But I’ve been reading a number of Fulton Sheen books (he was one of the few I independently chose as being an excellent example of a Christian life). And the Roman Catholic Church has not yet named Fulton Sheen as a Saint. But Fulton Sheen was also devoted greatly to Mary as well as speaking and writing very well of Jesus. I suppose that perhaps the greatest Christian book written in English in the last 50 years might be Fulton Sheen’s “Life of Christ”. Borrow it from your public library and read just the introduction and the first chapter to see if you also might come to the same conclusion. If you think you might agree, and since you are a Christian, go ahead and read the rest of the book. To me, Fulton Sheen’s writing is even on top of C. S. Lewis (and I read a lot of C. S. Lewis books when I was in college in the 1970s).

Catholics look to the Christian Life experience of Saints – those that the Catholic Church tells us are in heaven and that their lives are good examples for us to follow. So far, my limited practice of praying to Saints or praying the Rosary has been beneficial to me.

In summary: The “Biblical Basis” is as I said, evaluate the results (look at the fruit). Matthew 7:14-20.

You won’t know for yourself unless you try it.

Step 1: Pick a few Christians that you think lived their lives to the greatest extent as Jesus would have them to live.

Step 2: Learn more about them. Work on including the lessons you learn in your life.

If you want to improve your spiritual life, take up gardening. Grow turnips. When you pick the turnips and separate the turnip greens, you will know Matthew chapter 7. What do you do with good turnip leaves? What do you do with brown or wilted turnip leaves?

Today, I put some fertilizer on my lawn near my trees. One tree in particular had some problem in its roots. It hadn’t grown very much at all since I bought it almost five years ago. Today I noticed that the tree wasn’t solid in the ground. I was easily able to break off the tree from its roots. Then I tossed the tree over the fence into the front yard. So I could chop it up and throw it away.

I pray that my own roots aren’t too rotten. That I won’t easily topple over. And that I will grow more as a Christian, instead of being pulled up to be thrown away.

This summer, I found that my gardening has taught me lesson after lesson. Perhaps as much as hearing a good sermon or homily.

 

[MrS]

jmm08:

I am in RCIA (learning about the Catholic Church). How I got there was that I had to study and think a bit. Who did I think were the very best examples of Christians who had touched my life? For me, I had a few answers. I think for each person who would ask that, they could come up with their own answer. .

And I think it would be safe to assume that many or all of them included a Marian devotion in their earthly lives… and pleased the Lord by loving His Mother.

 

[uniChristian]

Matthew 7:14-20 (Jesus speaking) How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.**

Matthew 7:14-20 explains how to discover and evaluate additional information (not yet in the Bible). I am in RCIA (learning about the Catholic Church). How I got there was that I had to study and think a bit. Who did I think were the very best examples of Christians who had touched my life? For me, I had a few answers. I think for each person who would ask that, they could come up with their own answer. My answers led me to look further into the Roman Catholic Church. The RCIA instructors have not taught very much at all about Marian devotion. They haven’t even taught us how to pray a “Hail Mary” yet. But I’ve been reading a number of Fulton Sheen books (he was one of the few I independently chose as being an excellent example of a Christian life). And the Roman Catholic Church has not yet named Fulton Sheen as a Saint. But Fulton Sheen was also devoted greatly to Mary as well as speaking and writing very well of Jesus. I suppose that perhaps the greatest Christian book written in English in the last 50 years might be Fulton Sheen’s “Life of Christ”. Borrow it from your public library and read just the introduction and the first chapter to see if you also might come to the same conclusion. If you think you might agree, and since you are a Christian, go ahead and read the rest of the book. To me, Fulton Sheen’s writing is even on top of C. S. Lewis (and I read a lot of C. S. Lewis books when I was in college in the 1970s).

Catholics look to the Christian Life experience of Saints – those that the Catholic Church tells us are in heaven and that their lives are good examples for us to follow. So far, my limited practice of praying to Saints or praying the Rosary has been beneficial to me.

In summary: The “Biblical Basis” is as I said, evaluate the results (look at the fruit). Matthew 7:14-20.

You won’t know for yourself unless you try it.

Step 1: Pick a few Christians that you think lived their lives to the greatest extent as Jesus would have them to live.

Step 2: Learn more about them. Work on including the lessons you learn in your life.

If you want to improve your spiritual life, take up gardening. Grow turnips. When you pick the turnips and separate the turnip greens, you will know Matthew chapter 7. What do you do with good turnip leaves? What do you do with brown or wilted turnip leaves?

Today, I put some fertilizer on my lawn near my trees. One tree in particular had some problem in its roots. It hadn’t grown very much at all since I bought it almost five years ago. Today I noticed that the tree wasn’t solid in the ground. I was easily able to break off the tree from its roots. Then I tossed the tree over the fence into the front yard. So I could chop it up and throw it away.

I pray that my own roots aren’t too rotten. That I won’t easily topple over. And that I will grow more as a Christian, instead of being pulled up to be thrown away.

This summer, I found that my gardening has taught me lesson after lesson. Perhaps as much as hearing a good sermon or homily.

Sorry this does not even relate to my quest for help. I need tangible proof, is there any? I mean in the bible right now, are you saying someday more may be added to the bible?

 

[MrS]

uniChristian:

Sorry this does not even relate to my quest for help. I need tangible proof, is there any? I mean in the bible right now, are you saying someday more may be added to the bible?

The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church… written by Catholics under the grace of the Holy Spirt… canonized and re-affirmed in Catholic Councils under the grace of the Holy Spirit… studied, pronounced, and interpreted correctly only in the Catholic Church under the grace of the Holy Spirit.

If you wish to understand what is in the Bible you can go to any minister, pastor, tele-evangelist etc, and get lots of varied opinions. Or you can enjoy the Scriptures, the Traditions, and the Magisterium that is God-given and present only in the Catholic Church. That Truth is re-affirmed in the Bible.

Some things are implicit, some explicit. That is why Christ declared that Peter (his office of Primacy among the Apostles), and then the Apostles in union with him would have the power to bind and loose. And the rest of us have the free will to accept or reject. But when you reject the Church you reject Jesus, and when you reject Jesus, you reject the One who sent Him.

Not good…

Jesus will let you walk away as He did those who rejected His teaching on the Real Presence… otherwise you have no free will.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Unichristian:

Sorry this does not even relate to my quest for help. I need tangible proof, is there any? I mean in the bible right now, are you saying someday more may be added to the bible?

My friend,

I think you need to look more closely at how you received your Bible. It did not pop out of the sky, and I would imagine that the Bible you use is missing many of the books of the Old Testament which the early Christians used. Many of the books that most Christians accept as the New Testament today were hotly debated as to their inspiration. Hebrews and the Apocalypse of John were especially scrutinized for authenticity. In short, the gospel message for the first four hundred years or so was based on Apostolic Tradition as well as the teachings of the Church. It was the Church which, over the course of several councils, determined which texts were canonical and which ones were not.

I think that once you understand that the early Church, when pressed with a question, did not think, “Where is that in the Scriptures?” but rather thought, “What did Christ and the Apostles say about that?” you will begin to see a little more clearly why Catholics believe the things we do. Nearly everything I can think of in Catholicism has some roots in the Scriptures. Sola scriptura, however, is an idea completely foreign to Scipture and the early Church.

Anyhow, don’t think that I’m bashing you. It’s just that I’m trying to show you that the Scriptures need not show tangible proof of a belief developed from an interaction of Scriptures, the Apostolic Tradition passed down to us, and the infallible teaching of the Church.

 

[Exporter]

Give 10 college graduates who know nothing of Christianity each a Bible.
Come back in a year and ask them to write 20 doctrines of a hypothetical Church.

They will all be different! Why?

We need the Magisterium and Tradition to interpret the Bible.

( To just read a Bible without guidence is of little profit.)

 

[jimmy]

uniChristian:

As a Christian I agree there are far to many Idols in the Catholic faith. The Cherubim you refer to here were behind the vail of the Holy of Holies so only the High priest could see them. They were there because God told Moses to put them there. Where and when did God say to erect a statue of Mary and Jesus. Help me if you can, I can’t find anything in the bible that says to build statues and erect them in the church, but I am no apologist.

Since God was fine with building statues of cherubims it is safe to assume it is fine to build statues of Jesus. Why don’t you tell me where it says that it is wrong to build statues of Jesus. Don’t give me the reference to the none shall build a likeness of what is in Heaven or on earth because the Cherubim would go against that.

Do you have pictures of your family?

 

[Katholikos]

uniChristian:

Could you please advise me where I should turn in my bible to read about praying to Mary and praying the rosary, I cant find it anywhere.

The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of existence. It was written by leaders of the believing Church to members of the believing Church and was not intended for outsiders. Just look at the introductions in the letters. They were written to local churches or individuals. The Church is about 400 years older than the New Testament and the Bible.:yup:

Please advise me where I should turn in my bible to read that everything I need to know about God and salvation are written in the Bible. And while you’re at it, please tell me where the inspired table of contents may be found.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[uniChristian]

Katholikos:

The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of existence. It was written by leaders of the believing Church to members of the believing Church and was not intended for outsiders. Just look at the introductions in the letters. They were written to local churches or individuals. The Church is about 400 years older than the New Testament and the Bible.:yup:

Please advise me where I should turn in my bible to read that everything I need to know about God and salvation are written in the Bible. And while you’re at it, please tell me where the inspired table of contents may be found.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

So you are telling me that the people who wrote the new testament were Roman Catholic, Isn’t this a conflict of documented history? I don’t recall any of the first Christians being Roman Catholic but what do I know I am just a gentile saved by grace. peace

 

[jimmy]

uniChristian,

No it is not contradictory to history. The church has been around since Christ founded it on Peter. It will not go away. In 175AD Irenaeus traces the bishops of Rome from the apostles to the 13th pope. He also says all churches should follow the church of Rome because of its preeminent authority. He then goes in the next chapter of book III of “Against Heresies” to say that the truth is only found in the Catholic Church.

In 100AD Ignatius, disciple of John the apostle, spoke of Schismatics

**CHAP. III.–AVOID SCHISMATICS.
**
Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange(5) opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].
Keep yourselves, then, from those evil planes which Jesus Christ does not tend, bat that wild beast, the destroyer of men, because they are not the planting of the Father, but the seed of the wicked one. Not that I have found any division among you do I write these things; but I arm you beforehand, as the children of God. For as many as are of Christ are also with the bishop; but as many as fall away from him, and embrace communion with the accursed, these shall be cut off along with them. For they are not Christ’s husbandry, but the seed of the enemy, from whom may you ever be delivered by the prayers of the shepherd, that most faithful and gentle shepherd who presides over you. I therefore exhort you in the Lord to receive with all tenderness those that repent and return to the unity of the Church, that through your kindness and forbearance they may recover(4) themselves out of the snare of the devil, and becoming worthy of Jesus Christ, may obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of Christ. Brethren, be not deceived. If any man follows him that separates from the truth, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God; and if any man does not stand aloof from the preacher of falsehood, he shall be condemned to hell. For it is obligatory neither to separate from the godly, nor to associate with the ungodly. If any one walks according to a strange(5) opinion, he is not of Christ, nor a partaker of His passion; but is a fox,(6) a destroyer of the vineyard of Christ. Have no fellowship(7) with such a man, lest ye perish along with him, even should he be thy father, thy son, thy brother, or a member of thy family. For says [the Scripture], “Thine eye shall not spare him.”(8) You ought therefore to “hate those that hate God, and to waste away [with grief] on account of His enemies.”(9) I do not mean that you should beat them or persecute them, as do the Gentiles “that know not the Lord and God;”(10) but that you should regard them as your enemies, and separate yourselves from them, while yet you admonish them, and exhort them to repentance, if it may be they will hear, if it may be they will submit themselves. For our God is a lover of mankind, and “will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”(11) Wherefore “He makes His sun to rise upon the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust;”(12) of whose kindness the Lord, wishing us also to be imitators, says, “Be ye perfect, even as also your Father that is in heaven is perfect.”(13)

Ignatius did alot of speaking about Heretics. He also talked about unity and honoring and following the bishops alot.

 

[Maccabees]

Speaking of Ignatius he belonged to the catholic church he said so. He was a bishop in Antioch circa 100AD. He gives us testimony that the Bishop of Rome at the time came through a direct line to the apostle Peter. Yup the same catholic church was the church of the apostles. In other terms the DNA of the catholic church is the apostolic church christ founded.

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop?

And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as … Anencletus and Clement to Peter?"
Ignatius,To the Trallians,7(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:69

So what about this Bishop or Rome Clement who suceeded Peter was his office and the office of other bishops inherited from the very apostles themselves and was this the plan of Christ?

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.”
Clement,Epistle to Corinthians,42,44(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:16,17

If the early church was not catholic why was the early church identifying the apostolic church as such?

“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen”
Apostles Creed

Hmm the Holy Baptist Church not there?

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

RNRobert:

Don’t forget 1 Peter 3:21 “baptism now saves you.”

You will have to point it out to me more clearly, as I can’t seem to find it, :yup:

 

[RNRobert]

Stephen-Maguire:

You will have to point it out to me more clearly, as I can’t seem to find it, :yup:

1 Peter 3: 18-21 reads:

For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison , who had once been disobedient while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, **were saved through water. This prefigures baptism, whch saves you now. **New American Bible

verse 21 in the KJV reads:

The like figure whereunto *even *baptism doth also now save us.

in the New International Version:

…and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also.

and in the Revised Standard Version:

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you.

I hope this helps.

 

[RNRobert]

uniChristian:

The Cherubim you refer to here were behind the vail of the Holy of Holies so only the High priest could see them. They were there because God told Moses to put them there.

Sorry, my friend, but that doesn’t wash. The 6th chapter of Joshua tells how the ark was carried around the city of Jericho before it fell. It was in full view of all the Jewish people. Secondly, you need to look at Numbers 21:4-9. When the Lord sent venomous snakes to punish the Jews for grumbling, He then told Moses to make a bronze serpent, and anyone who was bitten by a snake would look at the serpent and be healed. So it is obvious that God did ordain a proper use for sacred artwork.

 

[gsteele]

Matthew 10:14
“If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town”

…or internet forum for that matter.

 

[clmowry]

Maybe this should be a new thread, but what’s the point of this forum?

It seems lately that the point is for “anti-catholics” to post something about why the Catholic church is wrong.

The Catholic appologist in the group refute it.

The anti-catholic falls back on something like “I’m filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore I’m right and your wrong.”

Everybody agrees to disagree and then the process starts over.

Do any of these folks ever change their mind about anything because of the arguments presented here?

What’s the point, beyond intelectual fun and games?

Chuck

 

[RNRobert]

clmowry:

Maybe this should be a new thread, but what’s the point of this forum?

It seems lately that the point is for “anti-catholics” to post something about why the Catholic church is wrong.

The Catholic appologist in the group refute it.

The anti-catholic falls back on something like “I’m filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore I’m right and your wrong.”

Everybody agrees to disagree and then the process starts over.

Do any of these folks ever change their mind about anything because of the arguments presented here?

What’s the point, beyond intelectual fun and games?

Chuck

Perhaps some of the non-Catholics on these boards (whether posters or lurkers) may be here out of curiousity about our faith, and maybe, just maybe, some of them might learn enough about the faith to be drawn to it and convert. You never know…

 

[Katholikos]

clmowry:

Do any of these folks ever change their mind about anything because of the arguments presented here?
Chuck

Chuck, it has been my undeserved privilege to witness two conversions resulting from Protestant/Catholic discussion groups like this one, in which I participated. One is a young woman in Oregon – who was bitterly anti-Catholic – who came into the Church at Easter two years ago, bringing her husband and two sons with her. The other is a university professor from England who entered the Church last Easter. As a result of the professor’s conversion, her best friend returned to the Church. Both of these converts now teach the Catholic faith to others in their parishes.

We sow the seeds, the Holy Spirit waters. We do not know the impact our efforts will have on others. Something we say (write) may bear fruit years later and be totally unbeknown to us. But when the Holy Spirit lets us peek at His work in progress, it’s awesome.

So I encourage you and others to keep on keeping on . . .

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

What every Roman Catholic should know…

The Catholic Church is nearly 400 years older than the NT.

The Church did not come out of the New Testament like all Protestant churches do; the NT came out of the Catholic Church. The NT is a reflection of the teachings of the Church who wrote it, not vice versa.

Your arguments are ludicrous. A little knowledge of the history of Christianity and of the Bible would do you a world of good.

How unfortunate that you left without knowing that the NT is a product of the teaching Church, written under the guidance and inspirtation of the Spirit. It’s never too late – while you’re still alive, you can still learn true Christianity. However, if you die unrepentent outside the Church, your salvation is a question mark.

JMJ Jay

 

[sweetchuck]

Ouch. I see that excatholic is suspended. Oh well, I guess that’s what happens when you distort the truth. :twocents:

To answer a question about why non-Catholics are here. Many of them believe Catholics are hellbound idol-worshippers. That’s would bigots, such as Jack T. Chick, and institutions of bigotry, such as Bob Jones University, has convinced them to believe. Thing is, they are here to try and evangelize us heathens because they believe the lies they’ve been told. Though we worship Jesus, they don’t see that, and many of them would rather relive the Protestant Reformation all over again than to evangelize non-Christians.

It’s truly sad that they can’t see us as their Christian bretheren. I have no problem with Protestants. I don’t call them heretics. I don’t say that they’re hellbound, nor does the Church. I wish they would be Catholic so we could all dine at the heavenly Paschal Banquet together, but I understand that we will in eternity. So let’s go forth and evangelize the world, rather than hate each other.