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kayla
Guest
Nice Try… Ex-catholic, this may work on some luke-warm Catholics but not in this forum! you will have to dig deeper to find what your looking for.
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Nice Try… Ex-catholic, this may work on some luke-warm Catholics but not in this forum! you will have to dig deeper to find what your looking for.
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uniChristian
Guest
I have read the Dogma and I have found that what excatholic said about people not believing in transubstantiation are anathema according to the council of trent.Thanks for your two cents but I can read and what I have read is quite different from your post. Maybe the reason they don’t see you as Christian brothers is because of what has been written in Catholic Dogma. Check out the council of trent under eucharistic for yourself and read what it says about people who don’t believe exactly like the Roman Church says they must. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord and not the written word of the Roman Catholic Church.
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uniChristian
Guest
The term Katholicos (Greek for Catholic) was not used until 110 C.E. None of the 12 Desciple were Roman Catholic they were all Messianic Jewish believers. I know the Roman Catholic Church played an important role in the development of the Christian Church but to say that it was the first Church is a flaw, history proves otherwise.
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jimmy
Guest
Unfortunatly, like excatholic, it seems you do not understand the word anathema. Read the posts that have explained the word. You do not understand the bible and you do not understand the church.
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uniChristian
Guest
The New Testament is not an instruction book in Christianity. It is a record of the spiritual life of the newborn Catholic Church during the first 100 years or so of existence. It was written by leaders of the believing Church to members of the believing Church and was not intended for outsiders. Just look at the introductions in the letters. They were written to local churches or individuals. The Church is about 400 years older than the New Testament and the Bible.:yup:
Please advise me where I should turn in my bible to read that everything I need to know about God and salvation are written in the Bible. And while you’re at it, please tell me where the inspired table of contents may be found.
JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!
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uniChristian
Guest
Webster’s dictionary: Anathema, one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority. I rely upon the Holy Spirit for understanding, I wouldn’t have it any other way. !st John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Peace
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Church_Militant
Guest
Uni…
You need to look at these OT passages…Exodus 25:18-19, Numbers 21:8 , & 1 Kings 6 & 7.
Your problems date to the 8th cenutury where Emperor Leo the Isaurian (Influenced by Islam!) began attacking the use of icons in the Church) that’s where the term iconoclasm comes from.In the 2nd Council of Nicea in A.D. 78, the Church condemned this heresy. It did’n’t resurface in Christianity until the Reformation.
(see Apologetics 1 at: catholicapologetics.com/)
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j_arden
Guest
uni - you’re getting hung up on terms. Of course the Church didn’t refer to itself as “Roman” right from the begining because it wasn’t “headquartered” in Rome. However, after Peter and Paul went to Rome and were martyred, Rome became the seat of the Petrine ministry and, therefore, the “headquarters” of the Church. Same Church, different locations. An analogy would be that if the US moved it’s capitol to New York, it would still be the same country.
As to “Catholic,” there was no real reason for the Church to call itself “universal” until there were substantial rival sects and the distinction had to be made. Same Church, different titles.
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RNRobert
Guest
And I understand the “Roman” part wasn’t added on until the Reformation.
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Katholikos
Guest
Are you going to blame the Holy Spirit for your erroneous beliefs and for the competing and conflicting doctrines of all Protestants? They all claim to be led by the Spirit, but has He really led them to thousands of different answers to the same questions?
If – for example – the Spirit isn’t leading the Seventh-Day Adventists into believing one thing and the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists into believing another, who is?
He’s God, but He can’t get it right, according to you and other Protestants.
Poor, maligned Holy Spirit!
JMJ Jay
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uniChristian
Guest
I do say you are 100% right, we are well fractioned aren’t we. You are too, how many rites are there now? Wow we better get our acts together because Jesus is going to return for his church and we have to all love one another. Can’t we all just love one another? For anyone out there that doubts Jesus as being God, who gave us the commandments? God right? If God gave us the commandments why does Jesus say a new commandment I give you that you love one another as I have loved you. Hey Jesus must be God!!! Pray for our mormon and j.w. friends they don’t believe this like we do. Instead of looking at our differences can we focus on our Lord and savior, because when it gets right down to it he is all that matters huh?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Different rites within the Catholic Church do not have different beliefs. All Catholic rites are in full communion with Rome and with one another. The only difference from one rite to another is in the format of their liturgies and some of their external customs and disciplines (a result of culture, language, etc.). The doctrines are all identical.
Paul
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uniChristian
Guest
I was under the impression the Byzantines do not acknowledge the validity of the veneration of Mary by the Council of Trent. Is this true?
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PaulDupre
Guest
Absolutely false. In fact, the Catholic Encyclopedia (under The Rite of Constantinople, aka the Byzantine Rite) describes the Office of the Hours in the Byzantine Rite, which includes:
Hope this helps,
Paul
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Katholikos
Guest
Yes, God matters – and every single thing He teaches us matters – every jot and tittle. Truth matters. The Truth sets us free. God wants us to accept the gifts He gave us – the Sacraments – to help us get to heaven. He wants us all to belong to His Church that He founded for the salvation of the world.
Are you changing the subect? You don’t believe the Holy Spirit is leading me, or the Mormons, or the JWs, or other Protestants who don’t believe as you do, so what makes you think he’s leading you?
There are 23 rites within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that may vary in language, customs, culture, and liturgy, but we are all united in Faith under the successor of St. Peter, and we all believe exactly the same thing. The Catechism of the Catholic Church applies to all Catholics, irrespective of the rite to which we may belong. We are the people of One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism – worldwide. There are Catholic Churches offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – the Divine Liturgy – in 236 of the world’s 238 countries.
JMJ Jay
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Katholikos
Guest
UniChristian wrote:
From the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church:
“Remembering our most holy, most pure, most-blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life, to Christ, our God.”
The entire liturgy can be read here:
esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy1.html
JMJ Jay
The veneration of Mary didn’t originate with the Council of Trent. It originated in the first century.
From the Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Catholic Church:
“Remembering our most holy, most pure, most-blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life, to Christ, our God.”
The entire liturgy can be read here:
esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/liturgy1.html
JMJ Jay
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Maccabees
Guest
SO where is your history we have provided the early church fathers as our witness that the catholic church was the one founded by Christ upon the Rock of Peter along with Protestant historians. WHere is you misninformation otherwise?
You just state your opinion and run with it as a fact show me where the catholic church is not the church from the apostles. And you can label the aposltes whatever you want Jews, The way, Messianic, Christians or Catholic the fact is the only churches that have a dircect link to them is the catholic and orthodox churches.
As far as your reference to Trent yeah the protestants at that time where anathema since they were in the true church and left it for another gospel. IN our ecunemical dialoge we do not anathemize other denomiantions because in those seperated churches today people are born into those faith traditions and did not leave the chruch they were born into this state and reared in ignorance and prejudice apart from the church if you were alive during the reforrmation the anathema applies somehow I don’t think your that old.
Somehow I doubt you ever stepped foot in an Eastern Catholic Church. Yes the basic beliefs are all the same although expressed differently. THey not only venerate the Virgin Mary in the liturgy but their is always an icon of her in the Byzantine church. She is verated par excellance in the eastern church.
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mayra_hart
Guest
There are lots of passages in the Bible in which God commands people to make statues/images for religious use:
Exodus 25:18-19
[Y]ou shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at its two ends.
Now, if this is not a divine command to make statues, what is?
Michael Scheifler comments:
If you study the matter, you will find that these golden cherubim on the Ark were normally located in what was
called the holy of holies, the innermost apartment of the Hebrew Sanctuary. Because they covered the lid of the
Ark, known as the mercy seat, these were known as “covering cherubim”. Only the Jewish high priest was ever
allowed to enter this room, and then only on one day of each year, the Day of Atonement. Search the scriptures
and you will find that the high priest was never instructed to bow down to these statues of cherubim or to pray to
the angels in heaven that they represented.
Did you notice it? He did not address the issue. The fact of the matter, again, is that God commanded statues to be made. Scheifler completely ignores this, saying: “Yeah, well, but no one hardly ever saw them.” That’s irrelevant, however. It doesn’t change the fact of God telling someone to make statues. Also, his claim that no one bowed before those statues or prayed to the angels represented by them is of no relevance, either, because Catholics simply point to this passage to show that we can make statues for religious purposes. Let’s worry about showing reverence later. So Scheifler will have to admit that God said, “Make statues.”
Exodus 25:18-19
[Y]ou shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at its two ends.
Now, if this is not a divine command to make statues, what is?
Michael Scheifler comments:
If you study the matter, you will find that these golden cherubim on the Ark were normally located in what was
called the holy of holies, the innermost apartment of the Hebrew Sanctuary. Because they covered the lid of the
Ark, known as the mercy seat, these were known as “covering cherubim”. Only the Jewish high priest was ever
allowed to enter this room, and then only on one day of each year, the Day of Atonement. Search the scriptures
and you will find that the high priest was never instructed to bow down to these statues of cherubim or to pray to
the angels in heaven that they represented.
Did you notice it? He did not address the issue. The fact of the matter, again, is that God commanded statues to be made. Scheifler completely ignores this, saying: “Yeah, well, but no one hardly ever saw them.” That’s irrelevant, however. It doesn’t change the fact of God telling someone to make statues. Also, his claim that no one bowed before those statues or prayed to the angels represented by them is of no relevance, either, because Catholics simply point to this passage to show that we can make statues for religious purposes. Let’s worry about showing reverence later. So Scheifler will have to admit that God said, “Make statues.”
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