What's with all the anti women threads recently??

[Debora123]

I don’t think anyone who has a proper understanding would disagree with anything you said here. Which is my point.

But your post incorpirated the whole passage, which is what it is about. It’s not about knee jerk responses and declarations of feminism and it’s not about misogynistic definitions of a woman’s role.

Thanks! I wouldn’t have figured all this out myself. I was taught well, that’s all.

 

[Debora123]

I really wish Ephesians 5 wasn’t so misunderstood.

What a waste for such an incredibly deep and amazing piece of writing to be taken the wrong way.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

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This premise is just like the one that says if we don’t embrace homosexuality and all its manifestations, we “hate” gay people.

What the heck.

One can question and disagree with society’s directions for women without being “anti-woman.”

I guess it depends on how narrow a definition of “woman” one is using. If it means only a woman who works outside the home, limits her family’s size for her own preference, believes in “women’s rights” and not general humanity’s rights (and responsibilities) then I guess you could see a thread on the anti-family atmosphere of this society as being “anti-woman.” I don’t see it that way.

 

[Debora123]

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This premise is just like the one that says if we don’t embrace homosexuality and all its manifestations, we “hate” gay people.

What the heck.

One can question and disagree with society’s directions for women without being “anti-woman.”

I guess it depends on how narrow a definition of “woman” one is using. If it means only a woman who works outside the home, limits her family’s size for her own preference, believes in “women’s rights” and not general humanity’s rights (and responsibilities) then I guess you could see a thread on the anti-family atmosphere of this society as being “anti-woman.” I don’t see it that way.

What about claiming that women are less intelligent than men, do you think that’s pretty anti women?

What about claiming that it’s a women’s fault for not being pretty enough/available enough/GOOD enough when a man cheats, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that women belong in the home, only in the home, and those who choose to have a career outside the home are immoral, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that the anti family vibe in this culture is all due to women, not to mention, claiming that practically ALL the evils of society are due to women, is that anti woman?

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this, Juliane.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

What about claiming that women are less intelligent than men, do you think that’s pretty anti women?

What about claiming that it’s a women’s fault for not being pretty enough/available enough/GOOD enough when a man cheats, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that women belong in the home, only in the home, and those who choose to have a career outside the home are immoral, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that the anti family vibe in this culture is all due to women, not to mention, claiming that practically ALL the evils of society are due to women, is that anti woman?

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this, Juliane.

I have not seen those SPECIFIC statements. I would have to see each one to know whether you are repeating hyperbole.

 

[Debora123]

I have not seen those SPECIFIC statements. I would have to see each one to know whether you are repeating hyperbole.

I don’t have much time to spoon feed it to you. Gotta get in the shower at 9:30 to be at work at 11. But here’s one that someone else has already dug up:

On women being less intelligent than men: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=530819&highlight=In+Spiration&page=6

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t have much time to spoon feed it to you. Gotta get in the shower at 9:30 to be at work at 11. But here’s one that someone else has already dug up:

On women being less intelligent than men: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=530819&highlight=In+Spiration&page=6

You don’t need to be condescending, Debora. I don’t need spoon feeding - YOU made the statements so YOU need to back them up with actual postings.

That page of that thread shows a poster who believes that the male brain is superior in at least one way to that of the female. I don’t know if he believes that males are superior in ALL ways to females. That would be extreme. It doesn’t bother me when someone states that male brains are superior in logic, reasoning, objectivity to female brains. I’m not sure it’s true, but even if it were, so what? I have my own God-given qualities and someone else’s opinion doesn’t threaten me. I do think that God made men and women completely differently, to do different things in life, and that the current society’s blurring of gender roles is wrong. It doesn’t suit either men or women and causes lots of pain and suffering in the world.

 

[epan]

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This premise is just like the one that says if we don’t embrace homosexuality and all its manifestations, we “hate” gay people.

What the heck.

One can question and disagree with society’s directions for women without being “anti-woman.”

I guess it depends on how narrow a definition of “woman” one is using. If it means only a woman who works outside the home, limits her family’s size for her own preference, believes in “women’s rights” and not general humanity’s rights (and responsibilities) then I guess you could see a thread on the anti-family atmosphere of this society as being “anti-woman.” I don’t see it that way.

I don’t see why homosexuality is relevant to this discussion, or your views on it.

How does a pro-woman’s rights stance equate to an anti-human rights stance?

 

[Nimzovik]

Data is always good, but it’s important to understand it.

I know from experience how easy it can be to end up with bad data in this area. For example, in my first marriage, my husband would do things that wouldn’t leave a mark, so when the police would show up (because the neighbors called), I could tell them where the bruise was going to be, and I could tell them that he stuck something somewhere that no one should be forcibly penetrated, while he could show them the scratches I had given him trying to get him to stop. So according to the police reports (and if our data were included in the study you link), I was the abusive one.

There are plenty of similar men that are smart in abusing their wives - they know the system and so they make it appear as if their wives are the abusive ones. And then they hold it over the women if the wives try to leave - “I can prove you are abusive; I have the police reports (which he did, and I read them, so he was right). If you leave, I will get social services to take your baby away from you.” So the cycle continued … until he deployed to Iraq and I was finally safe from him.

Indeed. I am very sorry for your experience in this matter. When I hear of men beating wives it is enough to make me a Feminist! My wife used to work at a battered women’s shelter and she could expand exponentially on the subtle abuses that occurred to women. I, ppersonally have worked Psych. wards for 30 + years and have seen the toll on such abused women personally myself.

Yes. I agree with you. Data surveys can indeed be manipulated and massaged. It is an impossible task to get all the data due to the very nature of abusers and the victims fear of reprisals.

I am glad, however to see you approach my post in the manner you did. Yes, Female abuse is the origin of many a Feminist and people need to be made aware. I have often said there would be **no **Feminists **if **men behaved as they should. Alas such is not the case. I would be one of the first one’s on the Feminist train in this sense.

I am also glad you did not just dismiss the study **just **because it was posted at a Men’s Rights site. You did *not *bite my hook.

That said. The fact that men do get abused is a** rea**l one. You Tube and the Net is filled with such stories. The fact that men are the ones that get blamed for the abuse* when they **are *innocent is just far too frequent of an occurence for my liking.

This needs to be addressed as well, methinks.

 

[Debora123]

You don’t need to be condescending, Debora. I don’t need spoon feeding - YOU made the statements so YOU need to back them up with actual postings.

I didn’t mean to be condescending. What I said was only the truth, I have to be at work in a half hour, am in the middle of getting ready, and don’t have the time to sort through long threads looking for posts to copy and paste back and forth for you. Perhaps when I am back I will give you more examples, but I don’t see what difference that will make, considering you already seem to have your mind made up that all those things are not actually anti woman - to which I said in my very first post to you, we can agree to disagree.

That page of that thread shows a poster who believes that the male brain is superior in at least one way to that of the female.

That’s another way of saying it, but yes, that poster believes men are more intelligent than women.

I don’t know if he believes that males are superior in ALL ways to females. That would be extreme.

Well, lucky for me, I never made the claim that anyone stated men are superior to women. I made the claim that someone stated men are more intelligent than women. And have proven my claim upon your request.

It doesn’t bother me when someone states that male brains are superior in logic, reasoning, objectivity to female brains. I’m not sure it’s true, but even if it were, so what? I have my own God-given qualities and someone else’s opinion doesn’t threaten me.

Good for you. Personally, I DO think it’s anti woman to make the claim that women are dumber than men. Again, we can agree to disagree.

I do think that God made men and women completely differently, to do different things in life, and that the current society’s blurring of gender roles is wrong. It doesn’t suit either men or women and causes lots of pain and suffering in the world.

No one here is arguing otherwise.

 

[Serap]

…Apparently this is a new thing now.

What’s the deal??

Amen to that! I’ve noticed it too. Overt discrimination towards women lately.

 

[Nimzovik]

What I’ve observed is that misogyny can never be cured with misandry.

Concurrence.

I also believe that the Men’s Rights Groups can indeed be mature about their issues. I like to think that they would not sink into mysogyny in the manner many Feminsits have devolved into mysandry.

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzerboy wrote:“Sorry, Debora, I haven’t looked at the specific threads in question and, taking your word for it, stand corrected.** I just thought that since the submission of women to men, inside or outside the family, is against Catholic teaching, informed Catholics would not express such views.** I might have expected this from perhaps Southern Baptist traditionalists rather than Catholics. But maybe I’m wrong about the position of the Southern Baptist leadership as well, as I recall they may have changed their views about women’s place in the home and the workforce several years ago.”

Bold Lettering Mine:

Interesting. So. Are we to simply totally negate the teachings of St. Paul?

Are the teachings of St. Paul against Catholic Church’s teachings?

When I wrote about submission of wives to their husbands, I implicitly meant it should not be a one-way process in which men are not also sensitive to the needs of their wives.

 

[Nimzovik]

I’m sorry you are incapable of seeing the logic in “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Ephesians 5 21)” **to mean that spouses must submit to each other. **Not sure how much more clearly it can be stated, but I’m sorry you don’t understand.

Bold lettering mine.

Interesting it is that you characterized my perpective on the said scriptures when in actuality, I , ahem,* never stated a perspective on said Scriptures*

Hmmmmmmm… Revealing *that *is.

See above post #151 for my reference to the scriptures.

 

[The_Bucket]

It’s certainly misogynistic to say that men are more intelligent than the women. It’s quite a different thing to say that male and female brains think differently if that statement is backed up by facts and research. Certainly men and women are generally quite different emotionally and emotions play a big role in how we think. I think you could make a strong case that men are better suited to certain tasks while women are better suited for others. The idea that say, women are not as good as men at math or science or that men are worse at writing and reading has been thoroughly debunked. The emotional impact on thinking, however, is more in dispute.

Gender roles and gender identity are important in a society and I totally agree with Julianne that trying to make men and women the same is destructive. And frankly it’s been just as destructive to women as it has been to men.

God made us male and female to be complementary. We are each a reflection of Him in an incomplete fashion but when we are together we are a better reflection of Him that we could ever be on our own. I don’t see anything wrong with noting that.

But to debora’s points, there are some people who have gone far beyond simply saying “gender roles are important” or “men and women are not the same” and have implied something quite contrary to the teachings of the Church.

 

[Serap]

That site is offensive.

Quite frankly, it is people like you who cause women to instinctively flinch, whenever they hear the word submission. If you need manipulated data to tell you how many women are seriously killed or die because of domestic violence, I feel sorry for you and any daughters you might have or will have.

You can be proud to be a man because God created you to be a man. You do not need to tout men’s rights or demean women to be a man.

I think I’ll save my opinions for the next submission thread.

No way am I going to be arguing on the same side as a crazie.

This deserves a big:

:clapping:

Thank you!

 

[Nimzovik]

My mistake - I meant to specifically name Susan B. Anthony by name as an original feminist. She was a Quaker (i.e. a Christian) and pro-life.

And yes, I do accuse you of intellectual dishonesty. I demonstrated the absurdity of your opinions with well-crafted satire , and I countered them with facts (where applicable). But I put money on you continuing to say the same stuff.

*Ok *then! I will start with this then: So! Do you think that Margaret Sanger is not a Feminist Icon? Ahmmmmmmm? Do you repudiate her as an accepted by the Feminists Icon? And now for the really important question, -Do you repudiate Margaret Sanger’s philosophies? Let us have some real intellectual honesty shall we?

I find it ‘convenient’ that you-] backpeddaled/-] …uh… suddenly claimed you made a mistake when you were actually called out on your assertions.

 

[Serap]

What about claiming that women are less intelligent than men, do you think that’s pretty anti women?

What about claiming that it’s a women’s fault for not being pretty enough/available enough/GOOD enough when a man cheats, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that women belong in the home, only in the home, and those who choose to have a career outside the home are immoral, is that anti woman?

What about claiming that the anti family vibe in this culture is all due to women, not to mention, claiming that practically ALL the evils of society are due to women, is that anti woman?

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this, Juliane.

I agree with you Deb. There is an anti-women vibe on CAF by a small number of radical misogynists claming to be “traditionalists”.

Thank God most men I know, don’t think this way.

 

[epan]

Amen to that! I’ve noticed it too. Overt discrimination towards women lately.

There is a very long tradition of using religion to support bigotry. We need to be careful about that.

 

[Nimzovik]

There’s a reason most men’s rights sites are classified as hate sites by the southern poverty law center.

First, I suggest you give the actuality of the Poverty Law centers quote as you describe.
2nd, You admit that you believe in birth control which is indeed abortion. This is anathema to the Catholic Faith. Far more souls are killed by abortion (4,5 million annually world wide, I will give you the site if you do not believe me) then ever were killed by ‘back street abortions.’ Do the math!

If you have so seared the Spirit from yourself to the point that you can not even hear this - then seriously! What is it you expect that I can do for you? Ergo I assert - once again- we -you and I- can not ever make headway on this issue. So, once again, I reiterate,we will have to agree to disagree agreeably.