What's with all the useless universes?

[John10]

Not necessarily, there are many flat things which are not infinite. Besides given the scale of the Universe, which encompass all of time, space and matter, the Universe could still be rounded.

From the article: “There’s an important distinction between geometry, the behavior of parallel lines, and topology, the way a space can get all twisted up. While the geometry of the universe is very well measured (again, it’s flat), the topology is not. And here’s a bonus fact: not only can we not determine the topology of the universe from observations, but there are also no laws of physics that predict or restrict the topology.”

The Universe Is Flat — Now What?

Scientists know the universe is flat — so is there anything else interesting to say? Oh yes, there is.

www.space.com

 

[Barnesy]

Not necessarily, there are many flat things which are not infinite. Besides given the scale of the Universe, which encompass all of time, space and matter, the Universe could still be rounded.

From the article: “There’s an important distinction between geometry, the behavior of parallel lines, and topology, the way a space can get all twisted up. While the geometry of the universe is very well measured (again, it’s flat), the topology is not. And here’s a bonus fact: not only can we not determine the topology of the universe from observations, but there are also no laws of physics that predict or restrict the topology.”

https://www.space.com/34928-the-universe-is-flat-now-what.html

Sorry!! You said it was definitely flat so thats ok.

 

[John10]

Correct, however that does not mean it is infinite, and as the article states, nobody knows the “topology” of the universe.

It’s been universally accepted by most scientist that the universe had a beginning, and therefore will have an end.

 

[Barnesy]

Correct, however that does not mean it is infinite, and as the article states, nobody knows the “topology” of the universe.

It’s been universally accepted by most scientist that the universe had a beginning, and therefore will have an end.

But when the scientists say its flat they mean its infinite in size so it goes on for ever. So theres so much stuff that we can never see or reach. They dont mean its infinite in time. But it will go on for a very long time!

Maybe you meant time not size.

 

[John10]

But when the scientists say its flat they mean its infinite in size so it goes on for ever

That is not correct, the article I added, explains it “Take out your piece of paper with two parallel lines on it. Go ahead, dig it out of the trash. Wrap one end around to meet the other, making a cylinder. Carefully observe the parallel lines — they remain parallel, don’t they? That’s because cylinders are flat.
You heard it here first: Cylinders are flat.”

The article never claims to say that the universe is infinite. The universe is not infinite, because it’s known that time, space and matter all had a beginning, so none of them are “infinite”.

The Catholic Church teaches that God created the Universe out of nothing, so the Universe could not possibly be infinite, it had a beginning and will therefore have an end. If the Universe was infinite, it could not have a beginning.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

But when the scientists say its flat they mean its infinite in size so it goes on for ever

That is not correct, the article I added, explains it “Take out your piece of paper with two parallel lines on it. Go ahead, dig it out of the trash. Wrap one end around to meet the other, making a cylinder. Carefully observe the parallel lines — they remain parallel, don’t they? That’s because cylinders are flat.
You heard it here first: Cylinders are flat.”

The article never claims to say that the universe is infinite. The universe is not infinite, because it’s known that time, space and matter all had a beginning, so none of them are “infinite”.

The Catholic Church teaches that God created the Universe out of nothing, so the Universe could not possibly be infinite, it had a beginning and will therefore have an end. If the Universe was infinite, it could not have a beginning.

Youre confusing me John! Your mixing infinite in time and infinite in size. Just because something has a bigining is not a good reason to say that it must have an end but we do know that if things work out like scientists say then it will have an end. But I found this about its size.

According to NASA, scientists know that the universe is flat with only about a 0.4 percent margin of error (as of 2013). And that could change our understanding of just how big the universe is.

"This suggests that the universe is infinite in extent;

Wow. Just 4%. Thats pretty accurate. But they could still be wrong!

 

[John10]

No confusion Barnesy, however it is important to clearly define terms. What the scientists are saying is that the “geometry” of the observable Universe is most likely flat, however that does not reveal in any way the “topology” of it. Obviously, we will never know the “unobservable” Universe, so even if it seems to the best of our ability that the Universe is flat, it may not be so.

Remember for many years many people though the Earth was flat, because until recently everything pointed toward that, however we now know for sure it is not.

I am certain the Universe itself is not infinite, neither in time, space nor matter, because we know God created all of it, and therefore had to have a beginning.

More importantly we also know the Universe will eventually be destroyed and God will create a “new” Heaven and Earth. God could not possibly destroy an infinite Universe, He would never end, so there are many powerful common sense reasons to believe the Universe is not infinite, although it can be very big.

See also: Size of the Universe: Isn't it Too Large to Have Been Created by God for Humanity?

 

[Barnesy]

No confusion Barnesy, however it is important to clearly define terms. What the scientists are saying is that the “geometry” of the observable Universe is most likely flat, however that does not reveal in any way the “topology” of it. Obviously, we will never know the “unobservable” Universe, so even if it seems to the best of our ability that the Universe is flat, it may not be so.

Remember for many years many people though the Earth was flat, because until recently everything pointed toward that, however we now know for sure it is not.

I am certain the Universe itself is not infinite, neither in time, space nor matter, because we know God created all of it, and therefore had to have a beginning.

More importantly we also know the Universe will eventually be destroyed and God will create a “new” Heaven and Earth. God could not possibly destroy an infinite Universe, He would never end, so there are many powerful common sense reasons to believe the Universe is not infinite, although it can be very big.

See also: Size of the Universe: Isn't it Too Large to Have Been Created by God for Humanity?

Why can’t something be infinite in size if it had a begining?? And why couldn’t god destroy an infinite universe?? Thats silly because you dont say the universe is infinite because god couldnt make it infinite so he could of. So that means he could destroy an infinite universe.

God can do anything.

 

[John10]

Why can’t something be infinite in size if it had a beginning ?

Because “infinite” means limitless or endless. So if something had a beginning it has a limit.

God can do anything that does not contradict itself, otherwise - it is mere gibberish masquerading as English. (In other words, the phrase, “God can make a four-sided triangle”, is just gibberish).

By it’s own definition an infinite Universe has no end or beginning so it cannot be destroyed, it’s a self-contradiction.

 

[Barnesy]

Barnesy:

Why can’t something be infinite in size if it had a beginning ?

Because “infinite” means limitless or endless. So if something had a beginning it has a limit.

God can do anything that does not contradict itself, otherwise - it is mere gibberish masquerading as English. (In other words, the phrase, “God can make a four-sided triangle”, is just gibberish).

By it’s own definition an infinite Universe has no end or beginning so it cannot be destroyed, it’s a self-contradiction.

You are mixing up time and distance again john and infinite doesnt mean that something had no begining. It means that it goes on for ever and ever unless god stops it. But the universe in not infinite in time because it will end. The universe could have been infinite in the past and thats what they used to think before they found the big bang so it had a start. But it can be infinite in the future.

And it can be infinite in size it doesnt matter about if it started or not. They said with 4% accuracy!! It goes on and on for ever. And god can do that. If you say he cant your wrong.

 

[Barnesy]

And i just thought of something. Something can have a start and it can go on forever and i can show you. Just start counting right now. There. You started the count. Now never stop. You will go on for ever. So something started just now and will be infinite!!

 

[neophyte]

Because “infinite” means limitless or endless. So if something had a beginning it has a limit.

The fact that something might be bounded does not mean that it cannot be infinite; those are two separate things. The set of all positive integers is one example.

 

[Barnesy]

John10:

Because “infinite” means limitless or endless. So if something had a beginning it has a limit.

The fact that something might be bounded does not mean that it cannot be infinite; those are two separate things. The set of all positive integers is one example.

Is that like counting so you start and you dont stop?

 

[neophyte]

Is that like counting so you start and you dont stop?

Yes, as you said.

 

[John10]

An infinite Universe has no boundaries of any kind, in any direction, therefore it has no beginning and no end

The fact that something might be bounded does not mean that it cannot be infinite ; those are two separate things. The set of all positive integers is one example.

True, but only on one direction, because before the beginning there are in fact no positive integers. However that does not extrapolate to the Universe very well, because God will end it, so it has to have an end at some point. Besides we can only see the observable Universe, we do not know about the rest, so that is a huge “if”.

God cannot destroy an infinite Universe, even if it was infinite in only one direction (has beginning but no end, because God would never finish), however if you want to keep on believing it, I will not challenge you, it is more of a common sense thing than a theological issue, or a scientific issue.

 

[JimG]

For a moment I thought that the OP was inquiring about “useless universities.” That’s a problem that could be tackled.

But we only know of one universe. It has lots of galaxies and galactic clusters and black holes.

Stars with earth like planets that may have life can be evaluated statistically. But other universes are just pure speculation by cosmologists to keep them from thinking about the big bang.

And if there are other universes, at least one of them is most likely an Amazon distribution center.

 

[neophyte]

An infinite Universe has no boundaries of any kind, in any direction, therefore it has no beginning and no end

As I said, you don’t understand the difference between bounded and infinite. You might want to review your notes from math class.

Remember, you said “Because “infinite” means limitless or endless. So if something had a beginning it has a limit.” I’m just pointing out that that blanket statement is woefully incorrect.

 

[AlNg]

it all has a purpose.

I am trying to figure out what is the purpose of a mosquito? The mosquito takes in and carries and delivers to humans the deadliest type of malaria, falciparum malaria, and as well many other diseases. Thousands of people, including children, die each year from mosquito borne illnesses. Similarly, what is the purpose of the common house fly except to annoy and irritate you?

nothing God created is “useless”

 

[Barnesy]

An infinite Universe has no boundaries of any kind, in any direction, therefore it has no beginning and no end

neophyte:

The fact that something might be bounded does not mean that it cannot be infinite ; those are two separate things. The set of all positive integers is one example.

True, but only on one direction, because before the beginning there are in fact no positive integers. However that does not extrapolate to the Universe very well, because God will end it, so it has to have an end at some point. Besides we can only see the observable Universe, we do not know about the rest, so that is a huge “if”.

God cannot destroy an infinite Universe, even if it was infinite in only one direction (has beginning but no end, because God would never finish), however if you want to keep on believing it, I will not challenge you, it is more of a common sense thing than a theological issue, or a scientific issue.

Your still mixing up distances and time. The universe is probably infinite in distance. Remember the 4% error!! But not in time. Read about entropy!!

 

[neophyte]

The universe is probably infinite in distance. Remember the 4% error!! But not in time. Read about entropy!!

Ummm… no. The known universe cannot be infinite in size, because that would require it to be infinite in age (given that it’s expanding from size = 0 starting less than 14 bilion years ago).

Also, you keep forgetting to put 0. in front of 4%.