What's Wrong With Being Christian?

[mikew262]

Tietjen:

Rather than simply leaving the Church, they continue to sit in the pews pretending to be Catholic.

Yet another person passing judgement on somebody else. It’s not your call on whether somebody is “Catholic” or not. You practice your faith how you see it, and don’t worry about how fit somebody else is in regards to their faith.

 

[Tietjen]

mrs_abbott:

Over the years, I’ve acquired many friends who belong to many different denominations but all of them are Christian and believe in God. They are true to their religions and follow the guidelines and rules that their churches laid out for them to show them the best way to get to Heaven and be with God forever.

How many ways do you believe there are to get to Heaven? If, all the denominations were correct why is it that there are so many (some say over 20 thousand)? Here is a thought; maybe when the reformation occurred and people split away from the Church, they damned themselves to never again be content. Throughout the last 500+ years whenever a major objection came up some would simply split away again and start a new denomination. Now, IF these denominations were actually being lead by the Holy Spirit (which almost every one of them claim) then they would unite and become one Church since we know from the Bible that this has always been God’s desire (unless of course they care little about the desires of God and more about their own desires). All these verses and many more support ONE Church:

Mt 16:18-19 - “upon this rock I will build my CHURCH” (notice Church is singular)
John 10:16 - “there shall be ONE fold and one Sheperd”
Eph 4:3-6 - “one Lord, ONE faith, one baptism, one God and Father”
Rom 16:17 - “avoid those who create dissensions”
I Cor 1:10 - “I urge that there be NO DIVISIONS among you.”
Phil 2:2 - “be of the SAME mind, UNITED in heart, thinking one thing”
Rom 15:5 - “God grant you to think in HARMONY with one another”
John 17:17-23 - “I pray that they may be ONE, as we are ONE”
I Cor 12:13 - “in the Spirit we are baptised into ONE body”
Rom 12:5 - “we, though many, are ONE body in Christ”
Eph 4:4 - “ONE body, one spirit, called to one hope”
Col 3:15 - “the peace into which you were called into ONE body”

mrs_abbott:

Why should what they believe to be true be wrong?

Why should the earth be round when I prefer triangles? This isn’t about being wrong or right. It’s simply about facts. Facts don’t have opinions or favorites they simply are what they are.

mrs_abbott:

They are worshipping and honoring the same God that the Catholics believe. Plus, a priest of the Catholic Church told me that God knows what’s in our hearts and will judge us each accordingly.

I agree with you, they are worshipping the same God as Catholics. I agree with the Priest as well, but I seriously doubt that he was saying that it is okay for each individual to break away from the Church and become their own individual religion.

mrs_abbott:

That’s why I don’t believe in a one, true Church. The idea of a “one, true Church” is in the mind of the individual.

A “one true church” is called for in the Bible. Are you in opposition?
God bless.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mikew262:

Yet another person passing judgement on somebody else. It’s not your call on whether somebody is “Catholic” or not. You practice your faith how you see it, and don’t worry about how fit somebody else is in regards to their faith.

“passing judgement” :crying: boohoo

 

[Tietjen]

mikew262:

Yet another person passing judgement on somebody else. It’s not your call on whether somebody is “Catholic” or not. You practice your faith how you see it, and don’t worry about how fit somebody else is in regards to their faith.

Mike, if I struck a nerve I apologize. You can say that I am passing judgment if that makes you feel better. However, the fact is I am refusing to be politically correct. Would you rather everyone sit there in the pews and pretend to be Catholic? Sorry bud, if you are against Catholic Tradition, dogma, teaching, you are not a Catholic. Pretending will not change that and neither will those around you turning a blind eye. God bless.

 

[mrs_abbott]

CathChemNerd:

In John’s gospel, Jesus prays to the father before the Last Supper that “they may all be one.” Scripture speaks over and over again about the necessity of unity of belief and the unity of believers. So t was Our Lord’s express prayer that we be one Church.

Ok, I’m not trying to start an argument or anything but I’m going to pick that apart, for a second, and try and get my point across.
Jesus said himself, as quoted in the gospel of John, that “they may all be one”. What does that really mean? It could mean what you said about one Church but also it could mean that we just have the same belief in the One, True God? It doesn’t get specific and define what the “oneness” is. Never does it spell out a specific religious denomination. Everything else pointing toward the fact that Catholicism is the one, true religion is found in documents that are relevant only to the Catholic religion, like the Catechism.

CathChemNerd:

Protestants do not believe in some of the core elements of Christianity, including the Eucharist, the canon of Scripture itself, and (in some cases) even the nature of the Trinity.

True but to them, what they have IS the truth and the Eucharist is just something that “the Catholics do”. Plus, the argument could be that Jesus never refers to the Last Supper as the Eucharist in the Bible in those exact words. It’s getting technical, I know, but that’s what some look at when building arguments.

CathChemNerd:

So we describe the fullness of revelation which has been handed down as Scriputre and Tradition through the apostles’ successors (the bishops); this is the totality of the Christian faith. This is not said in any way to be condescending, or mean-spirited, but simply to describe the truth that we (as Catholics) believe.

Very true and I respect that.

CathChemNerd:

Does that mean that a non-Catholic Christian (specifically you) is inferior to a Catholic? That is a question that no one here can answer, because we know nothing of the state of your soul. That’s between you and the Lord. But one of the things that improves our relationship with God is when we partake of the sacraments–these are direct channels of God’s grace. Again, many Protestant churches see a diminished role of sacraments in our lives; some churches acknowledge only 2, or even 0, sacraments. This does represent the fullness of faith that was handed down from the apostles.

Another valid point and more to ponder.

CathChemNerd:

Sorry for the long-winded reply; it was meant in charity and respect, and I hope that it helped your question.

I hope you took my response to this the same as I took your post. I replied in charity and respect to what you had to say. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong, I’m just looking for clarification. Thanks for responding!

 

[scylla]

Jesus founded a Church, to say there is no true Church is to deny Jesus created a Church, or that He does things for a purpose.
Or to say that Jesus came here and founded a Church more like a hobby, but for no real reason since it is ok for us to found our own in it’s place, (since somehow Jesus failed).
Or that Jesus founded a Church which was the true Church but didn’t have the power to maintain it and it failed so people had to fix His mistake.

Therefore, starting up your Church whether you know it or not is essentially putting yourself in Jesus’s place. Most people don’t realize this and sincerely follow Jesus even going as far to join a church started by a man such a Chuck Smith or some other pastor. Usually these churches are very vibrant and filled with people sincerely trying to share their Christian faith. Yet with so many different opinions of truth this really deny’s the value of truth and allows for a Christianity which just agrees on simple Christian values, but no real affirmation that truth matters.
It is a contradiction to complain that Christianity is divided and then not sincerely join one unified Church. That is why Catholics invite others to join the Church and actually live what the Bible teaches, that we need to be of one faith, one baptism.
This is not condemning anyone any more than saying it is wrong to deny truth.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[carol_marie]

mikew262:

While I encourage you to re-explore the Catholic faith, I don’t condemn/judge you if you don’t, and if what you say is true about yourself, IMO, God doesn’t condemn you either.

But don’t you think God cares if she misses mass? I thought that was a mortal sin?

Also, Mrs. A,
I used to be just a “Christian” and while I loved Jesus deeply & had a realationship with Him - it wasn’t until I became Catholic that I could receive Him in the Eucharist. That’s SUCH a biggie, don’t you think?

So in my opinion, that’s what wrong with being just a “Christian.” Granted, if someone has always been a Protestant & they don’t know any better, well… that’s one thing. But to have once been Catholic… how could you walk away from the Eucharist? I’m not asking this to put you on the spot… I just can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could walk away?

 

[mrs_abbott]

valient Lucy:

No, and the Catholic Church does not say that either. But Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the original Church, founded by Christ, and the authority that Christ gave the apostles remains with us today, in the bishops. That’s how we know that Protestants don’t have all the truth. We believe that Protestantism cut itself off from the history of Christianity when it created sola scriptura, ie the Bible alone. After all, the Bible is a pretty complicated book, and can be interpreted in many different ways.
You claim not to believe in one true church. How many churches did Christ intend for there to be? How many versions of the gospel and the truth did Christ want?

I respect the beliefs of the Catholic faith because I was raised Catholic and understand them. I just don’t understand why we can’t have harmony under the banner that we all believe in the SAME God?!
I’m not questioning the gospels. I’m questioning the interpretations and the condemnations that have spawned from it. Christ Himself said that we are to be “One Church”. How did Christ define “church” though? Did he specifically say that church meant religion?
valient Lucy:

Another valid question would be do you believe that there is truth, and do you think that we can know the truth?

That is a valid question and I’d have to say that we can know the direction of the truth but never the full truth until we die and go face to face with God.
valient Lucy:

That’s another reason why it’s “bad” not to be Catholic. The Bible condemns schisms and divisions within the Church. We believe that Christ intended there to be One Church, One Body. The body can’t function very well if the right leg decides to cut itself off and do its own thing.

What is the One Church, One Body? Is it specifically stated to be Catholic?

 

[valient_Lucy]

mrs_abbott:

Over the years, I’ve acquired many friends who belong to many different denominations but all of them are Christian and believe in God. They are true to their religions and follow the guidelines and rules that their churches laid out for them to show them the best way to get to Heaven and be with God forever.
Why should what they believe to be true be wrong?

My mom absolutly believes that the acceleration due to gravity is dependent upon the object’s mass. She believes this with all of her heart. But that doesn’t make her right.
My aunt and uncle believe that evolution is wrong, and that the world was created in six days, about 6,000 years ago. They believe this with all of their heart.
When I was 5 years old, I believed that I could learn to fly. I believed this with all of my heart. But I was wrong.
Belief in something does not determine our reality. In the middle of January, I can wish and believe that it is June. I can believe this with all of my heart, so much so that I will walk out the door in a T-Shirt and shorts. But my impressions and wishes do not determine reality. In short, I’ll freeze to death.

mrs_abbott:

They are worshipping and honoring the same God that the Catholics believe. Plus, a priest of the Catholic Church told me that God knows what’s in our hearts and will judge us each accordingly.
That’s why I don’t believe in a one, true Church. The idea of a “one, true Church” is in the mind of the individual. Through questioning and researching beliefs, you will be lead in the direction that’s right for you. By listening to your conscience and praying to God to guide you and listening to His voice, you will inevitably end up in Heaven.

Are the 9/11 hijackers in heaven? They listened to their consciences, and prayed 5 times a day. They believed in God, and that God had shown them the path and that they were obeying God’s will. Are they in heaven? If not, why not?

 

[mrs_abbott]

mikew262:

Yet another person passing judgement on somebody else. It’s not your call on whether somebody is “Catholic” or not. You practice your faith how you see it, and don’t worry about how fit somebody else is in regards to their faith.

Thanks, mikew! You helped me re-verify my point. Stay clear of this post if you don’t want to get ripped to shreads. Apparently, it’s wrong to be a non-Catholic Christian, according to several posts.

 

[mrs_abbott]

valient Lucy:

My mom absolutly believes that the acceleration due to gravity is dependent upon the object’s mass. She believes this with all of her heart. But that doesn’t make her right.
My aunt and uncle believe that evolution is wrong, and that the world was created in six days, about 6,000 years ago. They believe this with all of their heart.
When I was 5 years old, I believed that I could learn to fly. I believed this with all of my heart. But I was wrong.
Belief in something does not determine our reality. In the middle of January, I can wish and believe that it is June. I can believe this with all of my heart, so much so that I will walk out the door in a T-Shirt and shorts. But my impressions and wishes do not determine reality. In short, I’ll freeze to death.

This is getting absurd and off-topic. No comment.
valient Lucy:

Are the 9/11 hijackers in heaven? They listened to their consciences, and prayed 5 times a day. They believed in God, and that God had shown them the path and that they were obeying God’s will. Are they in heaven? If not, why not?

What they did was horrible but do YOU really know if they’re in Heaven or not? God will judge them, not you or anyone else, for that matter!

 

[Irene]

mrs_abbott:

What is the One Church, One Body? Is it specifically stated to be Catholic?

Mrs Abbott,

In the sense that the word “catholic” is the Greek for “universal”, and there is only one universe, yes.

 

[Tietjen]

mrs_abbott:

Thanks, mikew! You helped me re-verify my point. Stay clear of this post if you don’t want to get ripped to shreads. Apparently, it’s wrong to be a non-Catholic Christian, according to several posts.

I’m sorry that you feel attacked. That was not my intention. God bless.

 

[valient_Lucy]

mrs_abbott:

I respect the beliefs of the Catholic faith because I was raised Catholic and understand them. I just don’t understand why we can’t have harmony under the banner that we all believe in the SAME God?!

My mom asks the same question too. To my mom, harmony is more of a feeling of kinship, and acceptance that the other person is a Christian. However, to Catholics, harmony comes from unity of belief.
In addition, the condemnations do not only stem from the Catholic side. At my mom’s church, the pastor once told the congregation that the idea of the Real Presence in the Eucharist came from Satan. He said that Adoration of the Eucharist was Idolatry, and that the Sacrifice of the Mass is blasphemy.
BTW, one of my friends wanted to know why there’s such tension between polytheists (like Hindus) and monotheists (like Muslims). She wants to know if it really makes a big difference whether or not we believe in one God or many Gods.
My question to you is, does it make a difference if we believe in one God or many gods? If so, why? If not, why not?

mrs_abbott:

I’m not questioning the gospels. I’m questioning the interpretations and the condemnations that have spawned from it. Christ Himself said that we are to be “One Church”. How did Christ define “church” though? Did he specifically say that church meant religion?

Jesus spoke about the Holy Spirit guiding the Church to the fullness of Truth.
That is a valid question and I’d have to say that we can know the direction of the truth but never the full truth until we die and go face to face with God. Paul and the other apostles seemed to put a great deal of emphasis on unity of belief, and so did the early church.
You said in your last post that you felt that we can know SOME truth, but not ALL truth, untill we come face to face with God. This is contrary to the Catholic teaching. Catholics believe that we can INDEED know the Truth, because God has revealed the truth to us, in the Person of Jesus Christ. We also believe, as we said, that God sent the Holy Spirit to the Church to guide it to all Truth.
I suspect when you say “religion” that you really mean “strict rules about what we’re supposed to believe and what we’re supposed to do that severly limits our freedom.”
However, think about it from the Catholic position. We believe that God has revealed the Truth about Himself, and to the World
We believe that anything that contradicts the Truth that God revealed to himself is wrong. It may not necessarily be bad or dangerous, but it’s wrong. Just like the Flat Earth Society. They’re simply wrong about the shape of the earth. They may be harmless, but they’re wrong.

 

[rayne89]

There can not be more then one truth. Either the Eucharist has the real presence of Christ or it doesn’t. Either Jesus instituted the priesthood or he didn’t. Either baptism is required or it isn’t. Either we need the sacraments or we don’t.

I know there are certain protestant denominations who think dancing is a sin. Is it true or isn’t. What about alcohol consumption? Once saved always saved or not?

The fullness of faith is not meant to be an insult. As Catholics we believe (and history backs this) that Catholism is the first Christian Church. We believe those seperated from the first church have elements of truth but since they left the church in disagreement they left some of those truths behind.

 

[valient_Lucy]

mrs_abbott:

This is getting absurd and off-topic. No comment.

My point is, imply believing something does not make it true. Truth is true regardless of whether we believe it or not. Truth (or right and wrong for that matter) are decided by a popularity contest.

mrs_abbott:

What they did was horrible but do YOU really know if they’re in Heaven or not? God will judge them, not you or anyone else, for that matter!

I can certainly judge their actions. I can say their actions were wrong, because I believe that there is such a thing as right and wrong. Do you?

Also, do you think that God sees the death of innocent people and shrugs his shoulders and says, “hey, no big deal. it happens.” Do you believe that God punishes anyone for their sins?

 

[mrs_abbott]

valient Lucy:

I can certainly judge their actions. I can say their actions were wrong, because I believe that there is such a thing as right and wrong. Do you?

Also, do you think that God sees the death of innocent people and shrugs his shoulders and says, “hey, no big deal. it happens.” Do you believe that God punishes anyone for their sins?

You are playing God by suggesting that you know what he’s thinking or how he’s judging people, even what we perceive to be the worst people imaginable.
You have no place to say what God thinks about murderers and others along that scale. God is not human. He is divine and His thinking and logic go far above man’s.
I didn’t say that God was apathetic. I simply said that you can’t “assume” how God thinks. To do so would suggest that you think you’re equal to him.

 

[Eden]

Sorry, maybe I missed the explanation but mrs_abbott, what was the reason for your profile describing you as “Catholic” earlier? I see it now says “Christian”. I’m confused. Are you a Catholic Christian or not?

 

[mrs_abbott]

valient Lucy:

BTW, one of my friends wanted to know why there’s such tension between polytheists (like Hindus) and monotheists (like Muslims). She wants to know if it really makes a big difference whether or not we believe in one God or many Gods.
My question to you is, does it make a difference if we believe in one God or many gods? If so, why? If not, why not?

I’m not a theologist nor do I care about polytheists. I’ve explored the Greek mythology of a god for almost every element of the Earth and just life, in general. It’s something that didn’t catch my eye as something I’d want to pursue.
So, to answer your question, I don’t know.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Eden:

Sorry, maybe I missed the explanation but mrs_abbott, what was the reason for your profile describing you as “Catholic” earlier? I see it now says “Christian”. I’m confused. Are you a Catholic Christian or not?

Lol . . . no, you didn’t miss anything. I changed it because someone asked if I was Catholic and I said “in name only” so I just label myself as a Christian, for now, until I find my place and peace with religion. It’s a long road to travel.