What's Wrong With Being Christian?

[mrs_abbott]

Tietjen:

I’m sorry that you feel attacked. That was not my intention. God bless.

Don’t worry about it. I’m just frustrated, that’s all. I know you are explaining your points and I am explaining mine. It tends to cause tension when no one is reaching a middle ground of some sort, doesn’t it?
Have a good evening!!!

 

[mrs_abbott]

carol marie:

So in my opinion, that’s what wrong with being just a “Christian.” Granted, if someone has always been a Protestant & they don’t know any better, well… that’s one thing. But to have once been Catholic… how could you walk away from the Eucharist? I’m not asking this to put you on the spot… I just can’t for the life of me understand how anyone could walk away?

It’s not the Eucharist I am having problems with. The Eucharist is a wonderful gift that no other Church has and my biggest sorrow is that Catholics take it for granted.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mrs_abbott:

I am insulted by the ones who think that they have the right to tell you that if you’re not Catholic, you’re not believing in the right religion.

Why is this insulting? What if they’re right and are looking out for your spiritual well-being?

“Truth has always bothered people and is never comfortable.”
Cardinal Ratzinger, October 9, 2000

 

[mrs_abbott]

JSmitty2005:

Why is this insulting? What if they’re right and are looking out for your spiritual well-being?

Because they don’t know who I am and what I’m feeling in my heart. Only God knows that. I hate people that try and play God and say what’s truth and fiction. God is the only one who knows what’s Truth. The fullness of that truth will be revealed when we die. In the meantime, we must follow the path He laid out for us to get to Heaven. The Bible has the directions on how to get there.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mrs_abbott:

Because they don’t know who I am and what I’m feeling in my heart. Only God knows that.

Agreed. However, truth is not relative. I have a feeling that that’s the position you hold, which is typical of ecumenical types. You prefer a pan-Christianity of the lowest common denominator. To you, theology is a mile wide and an inch deep (to steal Marcus Grodi’s way of putting it). You all “love Jesus,” but you can’t even agree on what that means. This is just the impression I’m getting from reading your posts.

I hate people that try and play God and say what’s truth and fiction.

Discerning truth from falsehood is NOT “playing God.” It is using our God-given intellect to His greater glory.

God is the only one who knows what’s Truth. The fullness of that truth will be revealed when we die.

Actually, Truth was revealed to us in it’s entirety in the person of Jesus Christ. We can know the truth.

In the meantime, we must follow the path He laid out for us to get to Heaven. The Bible has the directions on how to get there.

No, in the meantime, we must spread the Truth. The Bible is part of God’s Word, but not all of it.

 

[mrs_abbott]

JSmitty2005:

Agreed. However, truth is not relative. I have a feeling that that’s the position you hold, which is typical of ecumenical types. You prefer a pan-Christianity of the lowest common denominator. To you, theology is a mile wide and an inch deep (to steal Marcus Grodi’s way of putting it). You all “love Jesus,” but you can’t even agree on what that means. This is just the impression I’m getting from reading your posts.

You all “love Jesus”? That seems like you’re classifying me with dozens of others that share “my way of thinking”.
That’s not the point I’m trying to get across. Once again, there’s labeling going on and that brings me back to my original post that started this thread.
Why must non-Catholic Christians not ever be good enough for Catholics? You don’t know what kind of people they are. Just because they don’t share the same beliefs as you doesn’t make them any less of a person in God’s eyes.
He’s the Ultimate Judge, not man. Why can’t people be tolerate of other beliefs? It feels like anyone who isn’t Catholic and states reason as to why they aren’t, the Catholics will find fault in that and say how “this and that is not good enough”.
I was raised Catholic and I know all of the teachings and beliefs that Catholics have. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and attended Church regularly and was even active in CYO and other Catholic groups. There was nothing wrong with that.
As an adult, I’m seeing the other side of the picture that I couldn’t question as a child for fear of punishment and disappointment from my parents.
If all I can be is a “cafeteria Catholic”, then I’ve heard many times it’s best if I’m not Catholic at all. That’s why I’m exploring neutral Christianity because any denominational faith, at this point, would yield the same obstacles as Catholicism.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH BEING CHRISTIAN???

 

[Tietjen]

JSmitty2005:

No, in the meantime, we must spread the Truth. The Bible is part of God’s Word, but not all of it.

Amen JSmitty! God bless you.

 

[Eden]

mrs_abbott:

You all “love Jesus”? That seems like you’re classifying me with dozens of others that share “my way of thinking”.
That’s not the point I’m trying to get across. Once again, there’s labeling going on and that brings me back to my original post that started this thread.
Why must non-Catholic Christians not ever be good enough for Catholics? You don’t know what kind of people they are. Just because they don’t share the same beliefs as you doesn’t make them any less of a person in God’s eyes.
He’s the Ultimate Judge, not man. Why can’t people be tolerate of other beliefs? It feels like anyone who isn’t Catholic and states reason as to why they aren’t, the Catholics will find fault in that and say how “this and that is not good enough”.
I was raised Catholic and I know all of the teachings and beliefs that Catholics have. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and attended Church regularly and was even active in CYO and other Catholic groups. There was nothing wrong with that.
As an adult, I’m seeing the other side of the picture that I couldn’t question as a child for fear of punishment and disappointment from my parents.
If all I can be is a “cafeteria Catholic”, then I’ve heard many times it’s best if I’m not Catholic at all. That’s why I’m exploring neutral Christianity because any denominational faith, at this point, would yield the same obstacles as Catholicism.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH BEING CHRISTIAN???

Jesus left us a Church. All Protestant religions were founded by men and teach some errors in matters of faith and morals. There is only one Church that teaches the fullness of truth - His Church, the Catholic Church. Is it loving to allow other Christians to live in error, especially when they are unaware that their churches teach error?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Eden:

Jesus left us a Church. All Protestant religions were founded by men and teach some errors in matters of faith and morals. There is only one Church that teaches the fullness of truth - His Church, the Catholic Church. Is it loving to allow other Christians to live in error, especially when they are unaware that their churches teach error?

Where does it say in The Bible or any other ancient book, for that matter, that the Church that Jesus left was the Catholic Church? What did Jesus mean by saying “church” anyways? Did he mean religion or did he mean a common belief in God? Where does it say all this?
Once again, I know the teachings of the Catholic religion so there’s no need to bring up what’s already been said.
Please someone show me where there’s proof of this. I want to know where you can find the words “Jesus said”, “Catholic Church”, “only True Church” and “Christians are in error in their beliefs” all in the same book, paragraph and/or sentence. If you can, this discussion will be over.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

So mrs_abbott whats wrong with being Catholic?

 

[Tietjen]

mrs_abbott:

You are playing God by suggesting that you know what he’s thinking or how he’s judging people, even what we perceive to be the worst people imaginable.

You are being foolish. Forgive my straightforward critique of your post, but to suggest that God does not expect us to weigh what is right and wrong is unintelligent. God expects us to judge what is right and wrong based on what He has told us is right and wrong. You and those like you would have us shaking the hands of Hitler and allowing them to baby sit our children. If you choose not to judge the actions of others, then I pity you, for you will suffer horribly.

mrs_abbott:

You have no place to say what God thinks about murderers and others along that scale. God is not human. He is divine and His thinking and logic go far above man’s.
I didn’t say that God was apathetic. I simply said that you can’t “assume” how God thinks. To do so would suggest that you think you’re equal to him.

Not so. God does not expect us to sit around being politically correct. That type of thinking is flawed. If you choose not to “judge” what type of fruit a tree bares, that is your decision. DO NOT expect others to follow your ignorance. If a child molester lives next door, he will not baby-sit at my house. In addition, even if you do not mind him watching your children, I will keep an eye out should I see your children in distress. God bless.

 

[Eden]

“Christians are in error in their beliefs”

Why do you continue to insist that Catholics aren’t Christian?

The Church is Visible and One

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

mrs_abbott:

“Jesus said”, “Catholic Church”,

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 -** the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.**

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is “catholic,” which means universal.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.

www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

 

[Tietjen]

mrs_abbott:

Where does it say in The Bible or any other ancient book, for that matter, that the Church that Jesus left was the Catholic Church? What did Jesus mean by saying “church” anyways? Did he mean religion or did he mean a common belief in God? Where does it say all this?
Once again, I know the teachings of the Catholic religion so there’s no need to bring up what’s already been said.
Please someone show me where there’s proof of this. I want to know where you can find the words “Jesus said”, “Catholic Church”, “only True Church” and “Christians are in error in their beliefs” all in the same book, paragraph and/or sentence. If you can, this discussion will be over.

mrs_abbott if you have told the truth in past posts you already know that the words “Catholic Church” does not appear in the Bible. The first time it was used was about the year 110 by St Ignatius in a letter to the Smyrnaeans. He used the term “the Catholic Church” (he katholike ekklesia) thus establishing that It did exsist during the time of the apolostles. No other Christian Church can make that claim with proof in hand. God bless.

 

[Eden]

Regarding Protestants being in error, have you ever asked a Protestant if their church is infallible? The answer is always no. If a church does not have the gift of infallibility from the Holy Spirit, that means that it is capable of teaching error on matters of faith and morals.

If you ask a Protestant if they personally have the gift of infallibility from the Holy Spirit when reading scriptures, they will tell you no (as will all Catholics as we as human beings are fallible and only the Pope is infallible when teaching on matter of faith and morals). That means when we are reading the Bible, we are capable of making errors when deciding what the teachings from the Bible are on matters of faith and morals.

Only His Church teaches infallibly in matters of faith and morals.

So you see, Protestants can not help but teach error without the gift of infallibility - and they do teach errors.

 

[scylla]

Are you questioning the historical fact that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ?

Why do we accept that George Washington was the first president? Because he is, it is even more certain that there was a Church founded by Jesus Christ and this is claimed by the Catholic Church.
Non denominational protestants, (christians) are a relatively new segment of Christianity who all have their start in the last century. So they are christians and as Catholics we accept them as separated brothers and sisters, who we invite into unity in the original Christian Church.
There is nothing wrong with being Christian, I am Christian.

Now Jesus came to bear witness to the truth, if truth is not knowable then that pretty much says that Jesus was such a poor teacher we can’t know what is true or not even though He came to bear witness to it.

As a Catholic I am free, I know I am part of Jesus’s Church, I constantly try to let God work through me and live a more holy life each day. I affirm truth and have a consistant faith, and I can bear witness to the truth each time I share my faith with others. Most people I talk to about my faith just try and deny or find ways around belief, which though they love Jesus they are united in only one real belief, and that is truth is not knowable.
If you would like to discuss this I will be happy to recieve any PM’s about this.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[mtr01]

mrs_abbott:

Where does it say in The Bible or any other ancient book, for that matter, that the Church that Jesus left was the Catholic Church?

How about this from the Letter of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans:

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered]
either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. **Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. **(Emphasis mine)

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-21.htm#P2123_357530

St. Ignatius of Antioch was a student of St. John (yes, the Apostle John) and tradition maintains that he was the same child that our Lord Jesus held in Mark 9:36. He was the Bishop of Antioch, and wrote this letter around 90 AD.

 

[Mannyfit75]

mrs_abbott:

What is the One Church, One Body? Is it specifically stated to be Catholic?

“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wherever Christ Jesus appears, there is the Catholic Church.” St. Ignatius of Antioch came up with the term Catholic. He lived around 107 A.D.

Ignatius’ seven letters are among the few non-biblical Christian writings of the apostolic period. (St. John the Apostle was still alive when they were written.) They, therefore, bear important witness to the earliest Christian belief and practices. Thus the Bishop of Antioch becomes the first to emphasize Mary’s virginity; to declare the holy Trinity; and to present Jesus as both son of God and son of Mary. He also defends the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

In short mrs_abbott,

Ignatius was a disciple of one of the Twelve Apostles. He was taught by John. There was no errors in his teachings since his instruction was the same that Jesus Christ himself taught John and Peter.

Sorry if I trail off the topic, but if you look at History, the original Church is Catholic. 107 A.D is before the Great Schism and before the Protestant Reformation. It is clearly show through our history that the Church that Jesus built is Catholic, and as He promised “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

 

[CathChemNerd]

mrs_abbott:

True but to them, what they have IS the truth and the Eucharist is just something that “the Catholics do”. Plus, the argument could be that Jesus never refers to the Last Supper as the Eucharist in the Bible in those exact words. It’s getting technical, I know, but that’s what some look at when building arguments.

I hope you took my response to this the same as I took your post. I replied in charity and respect to what you had to say. I’m not trying to prove anyone wrong, I’m just looking for clarification. Thanks for responding!

Hello again, Mrs. A;

Rest assured your response is taken well; it’s fun talking with you.

Others have posted more since I’ve been here, showing some early sources that talk about the early Christian (Catholic) church, so I won’t tack those on. But one could look at the writings on the other beliefs of the Church in the early times, and lo and behold the beliefs are the ones that the Catholic church teaches today:
St. Ignatius (110 AD): They [heretics] abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because they do no confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ…"

And regarding the Eucharist specifically, no doubt you’re familiar enough with the fact that the word “Trinity” is not in Scripture. Yet of course Christians believe in the concept. Even though Jesus didn’t say at the Last Supper, “Hey, I’m giving you this thing called Eucharist,” the word is simply the Catholic church’s way of describing what Jesus did do (Gk eucharistein, to give thanks). And to Protestants, the Eucharist may just be something “that Catholics do,” and we can talk about this for a good while. But it is noteworthy that it’s during the Last Supper that that was the only time in Jesus’ ministry that he mentions the covenant. As you know, the covenant is God’s way of swearing oaths with us and binding us all as (yep, you guessed it) one.

Peace,
CCN

 

[JSmitty2005]

mrs_abbott:

You all “love Jesus”? That seems like you’re classifying me with dozens of others that share “my way of thinking”.

Are you suggesting that you are in some way unique in that you’ve invented your own brand of Christianity? It’s natural for humans to try and categorize other people and their ways of thinking. That’s all I was trying to do. Someone else must obviously share your views. You didn’t get them from nowhere.

Once again, there’s labeling going on and that brings me back to my original post that started this thread.

I forgot that modernity considered “labeling” to be a mortal sin.

Why must non-Catholic Christians not ever be good enough for Catholics? You don’t know what kind of people they are. Just because they don’t share the same beliefs as you doesn’t make them any less of a person in God’s eyes.

This statement suggest that Catholics believe that non-Catholics are somehow subhuman (“less of a person”). Where did you get such an idea?

He’s the Ultimate Judge, not man. Why can’t people be tolerate of other beliefs? It feels like anyone who isn’t Catholic and states reason as to why they aren’t, the Catholics will find fault in that and say how “this and that is not good enough”.

You’re right about God being the Ultimate Judge. However, He has entrusted us with the Deposit of Faith and has given the Church the authority to judge any novel ideas against it. Anything that is contrary to His teachings is necessarily damnable and we have a duty and an obligation to condemn them as such.

Tolerance, ahh, yes…the god of secularism, relativism, and indifference. In the words of Chesterton, “tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions.” Also, Pope Benedict XVI as Cardinal Ratzinger once stated: "A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well-being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.” In Fulton Sheen’s 1931 A Plea for Intolerance, he states that “America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance. It is not. It is suffering from tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so much overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.” Why would anyone ever want to be broadminded? Furthermore, Jesus and His apostles were not very tolerant by today’s standards. The following is from the New Oxford Review:

I can’t seem to find much tolerance in the New Testament. What I do find is our Lord getting angry and knocking over tables and pigeon cages and driving people out of the temple. And I see Him calling folks broods of vipers and whitewashed tombs. I also find St. Peter arguing (not “dialoguing”) with the Jerusalem contingent, and St. Paul falling out with colleagues over missionary tactics. But I don’t see much tolerance.
If you need reminding, Our Lord made a cord of whips to drive out the moneychangers. Maybe we should be asking Who Would Jesus Whip? more often. Don’t forget that whoever does not listen to the Church is to be considered a heathen and that heretics are to be corrected or avoided.

I was raised Catholic and I* know all of the teachings and beliefs that Catholics have*.

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that one!

If all I can be is a “cafeteria Catholic”, then I’ve heard many times it’s best if I’m not Catholic at all. That’s why I’m exploring neutral Christianity because any denominational faith, at this point, would yield the same obstacles as Catholicism.

I’m curious as to what you mean by “neutral Christianity.” Care to explain? I hope that you are not suggesting that doctrine is unimportant, because it is.

WHAT’S WRONG WITH BEING CHRISTIAN???

When you say that, you’re really saying “What’s wrong with being Protestant?” The Catholic answer to that question is that Protestantism is a heresy, which is the greatest of all sins. Error must be exposed and destroyed for the evil that it truly is. The way that you worded the question, however, is misleading. There is nothing wrong with being a Christian. In fact, the only way one can truly be a Christian is as a Catholic. You seem to be someone that is very concerned about Christian unity, which is a noble thing. However, do not elevate unity at the expense of truth. As Chesterton said, “A fad or heresy is the exaltation of something which even if true, is secondary or temporary in its nature against those things which are essential and eternal, those things which always prove themselves true in the long run.”

True unity can only be achieved when it’s based on truth.

 

[JSmitty2005]

mrs_abbott:

He’s the Ultimate Judge, not man.

We are required to judge truth from error as Christians, to say that that is wrong is…wrong! Notice that I did not say that we can determine truth for ourselves. There’s a MAJOR difference. The former is absolutism while the latter is the evil of relativism. I fear that you have succumbed to the latter.