Whats your favorite argument for the existence of God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter johngh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
THERE_IS_A_GOD said:
My favorite argument for the existence of God is my own near death experience at the age of 4. Prior to that experience I had no concept or belief in God. I was not raised in a home that practiced any religion. I had no sensitivities to the subject of religion or the existence of God.

After my near death experience that all changed. I came to know that God existed, and I was much more sensitive to the life around me and pondered how all things came into existence. From that moment on the world around me had meaning and purpose I never knew before. It had light I never saw before.

God brought me to my belief in Him. No other thing or person did this, only God.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your experience! I nearly died when I was a small child but unfortunately I remember nothing.
 
AnAtheist said:
You won’t see a forest in a chopped down tree either.
Click to expand...
Thats because a forest is a word used to describe a multitude of trees. You are not going to find a multitude of trees in a tree. However there really is a thing called love, and you can’t reduce it to bio-chemicals reactions alone.
 
Sorry if this is a little late in the thread, but my favorite argument is the “kalam” argument. I think it’s great because it completely obliterates AnAtheist’s idea that the universe has existed forever and will exist forever.
 
zach_dunn said:
Sorry if this is a little late in the thread, but my favorite argument is the “kalam” argument. I think it’s great because it completely obliterates AnAtheist’s idea that the universe has existed forever and will exist forever.
Click to expand...
Explain this kalam arguement to me.🙂
 
AnAtheist said:
Other possibilities:
  • Everything there is has always been. The observable change in the universe is part of an eternal cycle.
Click to expand...
Not possible, I’ll elaborate if you’d like me to.
  • In sum there is nothing, like the total energy of the universe is 0.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove with this so I can’t say anything.
  • Things actually do come out of nothing.
Click to expand...
Like what?
  • There are many infinite, perfect and timeless beings. (Don’t try to logically refute this. Those beings are above mere human logic, they have intvented it anyway.)
Click to expand...
I will logically refute that there are “many” infinite beings. It’s fairly simple:
  1. If more than one perfect, infinite and timeless being existed, they would be identical.
  2. If they were identical, they would be the same.
  3. If they are the same, there is only one.
Funny how that works isn’t it?
 
zach_dunn said:
Sorry if this is a little late in the thread, but my favorite argument is the “kalam” argument. I think it’s great because it completely obliterates AnAtheist’s idea that the universe has existed forever and will exist forever.
Click to expand...
Kalam;
Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.

Premise 2 is a false assertion.
 
zach_dunn said:
I will logically refute that there are “many” infinite beings. It’s fairly simple:
  1. If more than one perfect, infinite and timeless being existed, they would be identical.
  2. If they were identical, they would be the same.
  3. If they are the same, there is only one.
Funny how that works isn’t it?
Click to expand...
Premise 1 is a false assertion.

They would have to be infinite in all of the same aspects; (width, breadth, height, longevity, intelligence,…).
 
MindOverMatter said:
Explain this kalam arguement to me.🙂
Click to expand...
Ok, it goes something like this. I haven’t looked at it in a while but I get the gist of it.

Premises:
  1. Everything that exists in space and time has been created by something outside of itself.
  2. The universe exists.
  3. Therefore, the universe was created by something outside itself, namely God.
I’m not sure if these are the exact premises, like I said it’s been awhile since I looked over it. But one rebuttal to this argument is that the universe could just have existed eternally. This is a logically fallacy which I will demonstrate.

First, a question. Is it possible to reach the last “day” of and infinitely long time period? Of course not, then it would not be infinite. How about the second to last day? Nope, it would cease to be infinite because and infinite amount of days would have to have happened. How about the third to last day, or the fourth to last day? No again. Now you can see that in an infinitely long time, you can’t get to any certain day because an infinite amount of days would have had to happen before any given days or its infinity would cease to exist. But this is not true because today exists, therefore an infinite amount of days has not happened which means that the universe was created at some time. The question is by whom? That’s an easy one, God!

This might not be the correct way of stating this argument, but you get the idea. Hope this helps.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Premise 1 is a false assertion.

They would have to be infinite in all of the same aspects; (width, breadth, height, longevity, intelligence,…).
Click to expand...
That is what is implied in an infinite being, that it is infinite in EVERY ASPECT. If it isn’t, it isn’t really infinite in the first place.
 
zach_dunn said:
That is what is implied in an infinite being, that it is infinite in EVERY ASPECT.
Click to expand...
That is your presumption, but isn’t reality.

Infinite intelligence has nothing to do with infinite size, infinite power, infinite longevity, infinity benevolence, infinite patience, infinity clarity, infinite lust, infinite love, or many other aspects.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Kalam;
Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.

Premise 2 is a false assertion.
Click to expand...
By definition actual infinites cannot exist in reality.

If past time were infinite it would be an infinite series of events with no beginning which would be an actual infinity.

Therefore infinite past time is a contradiction and cannot be.

Therefore the universe necessarily had a beginning.
 
zach_dunn said:
Ok, it goes something like this. I haven’t looked at it in a while but I get the gist of it.

Premises:
  1. Everything that exists in space and time has been created by something outside of itself.
  2. The universe exists.
  3. Therefore, the universe was created by something outside itself, namely God.
Click to expand...
Premise 1 states that everything that exists in space and time has been created by something outside of itself"

This premise is the very hypothesis in question. To give it as a premise makes it a tautological argument and invalid for having any truth value (unsound).
 
James_S_Saint said:
That is your presumption, but isn’t reality.

Infinite intelligence has nothing to do with infinite size, infinite power, infinite longevity, infinity benevolence, infinite patience, infinity clarity, infinite lust, infinite love, or many other aspects.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point, the point is that any infinite being would indeed be infinite in every aspect. An infinite being would have infinite knowledge, infinite power, etc.

If two being have infinite knowledge, there knowledge is identical which means their knowledge is the same which means their knowledge is one. If you apply this principle to all other aspects you get the conclusion that there can only be one infinite being.
 
zach_dunn said:
That’s not the point, the point is that any infinite being would indeed be infinite in every aspect. An infinite being would have infinite knowledge, infinite power, etc.
Click to expand...
But that is merely your personal definition. It has no foundation whether it is true or not.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Premise 1 is a false assertion.

They would have to be infinite in all of the same aspects; (width, breadth, height, longevity, intelligence,…).
Click to expand...
God cannot have width, breath, height etc…

By Natural Theology there cannot be less than one god. Moreover, there cannot be more than one god because they would be self-same.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Premise 1 states that everything that exists in space and time has been created by something outside of itself"

This premise is the very hypothesis in question. To give it as a premise makes it a tautological argument and invalid for having any truth value (unsound).
Click to expand...
Woa, slow down there. Could you rephrase that? I don’t have that large of a vocabulary yet…
 
1holycatholic said:
By definition actual infinites cannot exist in reality.

If past time were infinite it would be an infinite series of events with no beginning which would be an actual infinity.

Therefore infinite past time is a contradiction and cannot be.

Therefore the universe necessarily had a beginning.
Click to expand...
The “past” is not a part of the “actual”. Only the present is a part of the actual. Time cannot begin. Time is the measure of change. For time to begin, something would have to change BEFORE time existed.

The number system has an infinite number of items within it. At any one time, you can only use a few of those, but the set is truly infinite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top