Whats your favorite argument for the existence of God?

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1holycatholic said:
God cannot have width, breath, height etc…
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Who said I was talking about God? You are stating that no being can be infinite except God. You have not included many “beings” that can be infinite without being God.
 
James_S_Saint said:
In logical (and rational) argumentation, you cannot state your conclusion as a premise.
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The first premise is not that the universe was created by God. The premise merely shows that nothing in space and time can exist without a cause outside of itself. Premise two shows that the universe was created. The conclusion is that God (something outside of the universe) created the universe. What is not logical about that?
 
zach_dunn said:
The first premise is not that the universe was created by God. The premise merely shows that nothing in space and time can exist without a cause outside of itself.
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Premise 1 is an assertion. Then by merely saying that “whatever caused the universe to come about” is what we call “God”, is merely making an argument of semantics.

The premise already declares that the universe had to come from somewhere ELSE. That is a false assertion actually, but regardless, it is actually the question at hand.

The former proposal was that the universe has always been, hence did NOT come from something ELSE.

The argument must show how that statement could not be true. But it cannot do it by merely proclaiming that it must not be true.
 
James_S_Saint said:
What makes you think so? Merely because you can’t think of one? Your comprehension defines reality?
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No my comprehension does not define reality, but it is logically impossible for something to be infinite in space and time as demonstrated in post 187.
Can you define what constitutes a “being”?
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That’s a tougher one, let’s start with “something that actually exists.”
 
James_S_Saint said:
The “past” is not a part of the “actual”. Only the present is a part of the actual. Time cannot begin. Time is the measure of change. For time to begin, something would have to change BEFORE time existed.

The number system has an infinite number of items within it. At any one time, you can only use a few of those, but the set is truly infinite.
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Odd, my yesterday actually happened. I’ve drawn a line through the day on my calendar to indicate as much.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Premise 1 is an assertion. Then by merely saying that “whatever caused the universe to come about” is what we call “God”, is merely making an argument of semantics.

The premise already declares that the universe had to come from somewhere ELSE. That is a false assertion actually, but regardless, it is actually the question at hand.
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And why do you think it doesn’t have to come from somewhere “ELSE?”
The former proposal was that the universe has always been, hence did NOT come from something ELSE.
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The argument must show how that statement could not be true. But it cannot do it by merely proclaiming that it must not be true.
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It doesn’t simply “proclaim it,” the argument on post 187 is part of the argument, which DEMONSTRATES it’s falsity. Quite different than proclaiming it.
 
zach_dunn said:
That’s a tougher one, let’s start with “something that actually exists.”
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So “being” actually means “existing”.

But that means, since an infinite thing cannot actually exist, God does not actually exist…?

Is that really what you wanted to say?
 
James_S_Saint said:
The “past” is not a part of the “actual”. Only the present is a part of the actual. Time cannot begin. Time is the measure of change. For time to begin, something would have to change BEFORE time existed.

The number system has an infinite number of items within it. At any one time, you can only use a few of those, but the set is truly infinite.
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Or create time…🤷
 
This is post #187
zach_dunn said:
Ok, it goes something like this. I haven’t looked at it in a while but I get the gist of it.

Premises:
1) Everything that exists in space and time has been created by something outside of itself.
2) The universe exists.
3) Therefore, the universe was created by something outside itself, namely God.

I’m not sure if these are the exact premises, like I said it’s been awhile since I looked over it. But one rebuttal to this argument is that the universe could just have existed eternally. This is a logically fallacy which I will demonstrate.

First, a question. Is it possible to reach the last “day” of and infinitely long time period? Of course not, then it would not be infinite. How about the second to last day? Nope, it would cease to be infinite because and infinite amount of days would have to have happened. How about the third to last day, or the fourth to last day? No again. Now you can see that in an infinitely long time, you can’t get to any certain day because an infinite amount of days would have had to happen before any given days or its infinity would cease to exist. But this is not true because today exists, therefore an infinite amount of days has not happened which means that the universe was created at some time. The question is by whom? That’s an easy one, God!

This might not be the correct way of stating this argument, but you get the idea. Hope this helps.
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That premise is what we are talking about. A premise does not “demonstrate” anything. It must be something axiomatical or “self-evident”. Premise 1 is NOT self-evident.
 
James_S_Saint said:
So “being” actually means “existing”.

But that means, since an infinite thing cannot actually exist, God does not actually exist…?

Is that really what you wanted to say?
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I never said an infinite thing cannot exist at all, I said an infinite being cannot exist in space and time.
 
James_S_Saint said:
This is post #187

That premise is what we are talking about. A premise does not “demonstrate” anything. It must be something axiomatical or “self-evident”. Premise 1 is NOT self-evident.
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That’s what the following argument that begins with “First, a question…” is for. Besides that, what can you think of that can bring itself into existence?
 
zach_dunn said:
I never said an infinite thing cannot exist at all, I said an infinite being cannot exist in space and time.
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You are making “actual”, “being”, existent", and “real” all the same thing while using them as though they were different.
 
James_S_Saint said:
So “being” actually means “existing”.

But that means, since an infinite thing cannot actually exist, God does not actually exist…?

Is that really what you wanted to say?
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God does not exist as part of the universe. Your assertion has no meaning.
 
James_S_Saint said:
What, one “day”, he decided to create time???

What was he doing prior? And for how long?
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“Day” and “how long” are used to denote a period of time. There is no time with God because He transcends space and time, He created them. He created it, that’s that. There is only a before and after in the universe. God is eternally in the present.
 
zach_dunn said:
Besides that, what can you think of that can bring itself into existence?
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I can’t think of anything. I think it is a fallacy to believe that such can happen. But then, I know how the universe got here, you haven’t shown that reasoning. 😃
 
James_S_Saint said:
You are making “actual”, “being”, existent", and “real” all the same thing while using them as though they were different.
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How so, and even if I am I feel I am making my point clear. Am I not being clear enough?

And I’m sorry if I’m not being clear, I’m just starting this whole Philosophy thing. 😃
 
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