Whats your favorite argument for the existence of God?

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Well… when we talk about science we actually mean the scientific method. Dude why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth, i have told you what i mean. When it comes to understanding the cosmos the scientific method is by far and away the best method. :confused:
Please explain, using the scientific method alone, the creation of the cosmos.

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In that case they must be responsible for their actions. Why aren’t they taken to court?
Err do you mean human court? So your definition of free will is anything that is taken to human court??? :o
 
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mathematician:
WOODY ALLEN: That’s quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn’t it?

GIRL IN MUSEUM: Yes it is.

WOODY ALLEN: What does it say to you?

GIRL IN MUSEUM: It restates the negativeness of the universe, the hideous lonely emptiness of existence, nothingness, the predicament of man forced to live in a barren, godless eternity, like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void, with nothing but waste, horror, and degradation, forming a useless bleak straightjacket in a black absurd cosmos.

WOODY ALLEN: What are you doing Saturday night?

GIRL IN MUSEUM: Committing suicide.

WOODY ALLEN: What about Friday night?
Is this supposed to prove something?
 
Please explain why it is not your opinion.
Because there is no evidence to support your assertion that, “It is more illogical to claim we are beings who know an unknowing universe and create our own purposes in an uncreated, purposeless existence…”, nor do you provide any justification for the assertion.
 
It is a metaphysical explanation based on evidence:
  1. Personal existence is the highest form of existence we know because persons are creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and have a capacity for love.
  2. The most adequate explanation of reality is in terms of the highest form of existence.
  3. Therefore the most adequate, intelligible and economical explanation of reality is a supremely creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and loving Being.
I have decomposed this nonsense earlier in this thread.
My question remains unanswered:

What precisely is illogical about the omniscient Creator Who creates beings to share His creativity, capacity for love and freedom to choose their own destiny?
Nothing other than a total lack of evidence or robust logical method to support it as a hypothesis.
 
Here is my suggestion.

It can be demonistrated that in all of the Created Universe, only humanity are gifted with a mind, intellect and freewill. One can demonistrate and prove this thesis.
How? Have you been to all the other planets in the Universe? This is a very bold assertion, I’m gasping to hear your justification!
Because only humanity is so gifted, and it can further be shown that these attributes are in there Nature, Spiritual, [non-matter THINGS] and cannot be quantifed as to size, weight, shape or color. Logic implies that there must be a specific reason for this annomaly.
Absolute rubbish, and it would still be rubbish even if your previous statement were true.
The greatest evidence of God lies in the FACT that in all the Created Universe, only humanity, so gifted, has the ability to accept and give LOVE. Love requires use of mind, intellect and freewill, all Spiritual Things. God too is Spirit!
Do you understand the meaning of the word, “fact?” It appears not.
 
Because there is no evidence to support your assertion that, “It is more illogical to claim we are beings who know an unknowing universe and create our own purposes in an uncreated, purposeless existence…”, nor do you provide any justification for the assertion.
  1. Are we beings who have knowledge of the universe?
  2. Do we create our own purposes?
  3. Does the universe know anything?
  4. Does the universe have any purposes?
  5. Is it more logical to believe beings with knowledge and purposes are created by a Being with knowledge and purposes or by forces without knowledge and purposes?
  6. If not why not?
 
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                 Originally Posted by **tonyrey**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5729789#post5729789)                 
             *It is a metaphysical explanation based on **evidence***:
  1. Personal existence is the highest form of existence we know because persons are creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and have a capacity for love.
  2. The most adequate explanation of reality is in terms of the highest form of existence.
  3. Therefore the most adequate, intelligible and economical explanation of reality is a supremely creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and loving Being.
    I have decomposed this nonsense earlier in this thread.
On the contrary. You have failed to explain why it is illogical.
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My question remains unanswered:

What precisely is illogical about the omniscient Creator Who creates beings to share His creativity, capacity for love and freedom to choose their own destiny?
Nothing other than a total lack of evidence or robust logical method to support it as a hypothesis.
On the contrary. You agreed that mental activities constitute evidence for your existence and the existence of other persons. You have also failed to show why my reasoning is illogical.
 
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                 Originally Posted by **tonyrey**                     
             It is a metaphysical explanation based on **evidence**:
  1. Personal existence is the highest form of existence we know because persons are creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and have a capacity for love.
  2. The most adequate explanation of reality is in terms of the highest form of existence.
  3. Therefore the most adequate, intelligible and economical explanation of reality is a supremely creative, conscious, rational, autonomous, moral, purposeful and loving Being.
I have decomposed this nonsense earlier in this thread
On the contrary. You have failed to explain why it is illogical.
What precisely is illogical about the omniscient Creator Who creates beings to share His creativity, capacity for love and freedom to choose their own destiny?
Nothing other than a total lack of evidence or robust logical method to support it as a hypothesis.
On the contrary. You agreed that mental activities constitute evidence for your existence and the existence of other persons. You have also failed to show why my reasoning is illogical.
 
tonyrey
Precisely. You use your power of reason to infer that it exists. So you assume you have the power of reason - which is an intangible reality.
The power of reason, self-awareness and free will.
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Originally Posted by Charles Darwin I would say chimps can also reason, are self aware and have free will.
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                             In that case they must be responsible for their actions. Why aren't they taken to court?
Why don’t we regard them as innocent or guilty? Why don’t we regard them as having equal rights to human beings?
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                              I am part of the physical universe, i am made from the stars, so i guess it does.
“we are a way for the universe to know itself” - Carl Sagan
Does the physical universe as a whole know it exists? Do the nebulae know they exist? Do atomic particles know they exist? Do the quanta of physical energy know they exist?
Do you believe the basic elements of reality are atomic particles?
I don’t believe we have enough knowledge to say for sure, so no. I would answer i don’t know.
Therefore it is another of your assumptions that basic reality is physical…
You already have the evidence within you - the power of reason, self-awareness and free will.
That is not evidence of anything.
Then you must be mindless!
Please give a reference to a scientific paper which explains how simplicity produced complexity.
Big bang, Star formation, Abiogenesis, evolution…
Names are not explanations. Please give a reference to a scientific paper which explains how simplicity produced complexity.
I don’t believe in any god for there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest one exists.
Thank you for proving my point. You have given me reasons, not explanations in terms of “how”. Why you love a person? Because of **how **you have developed?
 
Well… when we talk about science we actually mean the scientific method. Dude why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth, i have told you what i mean. When it comes to understanding the cosmos the scientific method is by far and away the best method. :confused:
No you don’t. By science you mean the application of the scientific method. You can take your cue from the logical positivists, from Popper, or from somebody else. But you cannot start out without some preconception of what constitutes the scientific method, and which is not itself empirically demonstrable.
 
No you don’t. By science you mean the application of the scientific method. You can take your cue from the logical positivists, from Popper, or from somebody else. But you cannot start out without some preconception of what constitutes the scientific method, and which is not itself empirically demonstrable.
Yes i do, i am talking about the best method we know for establishing fact from fiction. Now you can play word games all you want but you know exactly what i mean.
 
Yes i do, i am talking about the best method we know for establishing fact from fiction. Now you can play word games all you want but you know exactly what i mean.
Iam not playing word games. You have to establish what scientific method is. It just so happens that the paradigm which is generally accepted today comes from Popper. It may happen one day that, for whatever reason, somebody will need to be a rethink. Whoever it is who does the rethinking, he/she will be doing the philosophy you say you have no time for.
 
In that case they must be responsible for their actions. Why aren’t they taken to court?
Why don’t we regard them as innocent or guilty? Why don’t we regard them as having equal rights to human beings?
What on earth has taking an animal to court got to do with free will. Free will means one has the ability to choose a course of action from various alternatives. Are you saying that chimps can’t do this. All animals can to some respect.

When a lion picks its prey, it selects an animal from a the heard based on various factors, for example age, strength, isolation from the heard etc. This is a free choice from the lion, this is free will.

Please explain to me exactly why chimps don’t have free will. What behviour do they exhibit that is controlled, is god controlling all the chimps minds???
Does the physical universe as a whole know it exists? Do the nebulae know they exist? Do atomic particles know they exist? Do the quanta of physical energy know they exist?
Do the single atoms in your body know they exist?
Therefore it is another of your assumptions that basic reality is physical…
Been through this…
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                                                                                                                    Then you must be mindless!
Ok :confused:
Names are not explanations. Please give a reference to a scientific paper which explains how simplicity produced complexity.
I hope this is a joke, the point is those theories explain that very thing. Go to “Google Scholar” typing in Evolution or Abiogenesis, you will find all the papers you need.
Thank you for proving my point. You have given me reasons, not explanations in terms of “how”. Why you love a person? Because of **how **you have developed?
We have been through this before, can you not find some new arguments, it’s the same old tosh over and over again.
 
  1. Are we beings who have knowledge of the universe?
Some knowledge, far from all.
  1. Do we create our own purposes?
It appears so from our own perspective. Determinism cannot be ruled out though.
  1. Does the universe know anything?
No, there’s nothing to suggest the Universe has sentience.
  1. Does the universe have any purposes?
No, there’s nothing to suggest the Universe has sentience.
  1. Is it more logical to believe beings with knowledge and purposes are created by a Being with knowledge and purposes or by forces without knowledge and purposes?
The latter.
  1. If not why not?
Because there’s no evidence, nor objective logic, to suggest that such a Being exists. All we do know about are the things we observe. To reach a conclusion other than one commensurate with our knowledge of the Universe is nothing more than conjecture.
 
On the contrary. You have failed to explain why it is illogical.
Wrong on your part. I have pointed out on many, many occasions that there is no evidence. The problem is solely that you can’t agree because that would force you to recognise the irrationality of your belief.
On the contrary. You agreed that mental activities constitute evidence for your existence and the existence of other persons. You have also failed to show why my reasoning is illogical.
Again, I have shown this on many occasions. It’s just that you refuse to listen to anything that does not mollycoddle your presuppositions.
 
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