blackforest
Well-known member
You’d be OK with mandating a vaccine that ended up causing 40K cases of polio and killed or paralyzed 200 children? How did that help “the common good?”
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Yes, it is a moral dilemma. But there is something else going on, I think, in the minds of many older people in their 80’s+ and even their 70’s. That is, they have already lived their lives (I remember my parents telling me this when they were in their 60’s). Many of them are already isolated from their family and friends, who are the same age and may have died of other causes. It’s not that they are suicidal and lack the will to live, but rather that they have accomplished many of their goals in life, or not, and time is short anyway. Younger people don’t generally think this way. However, the elderly, whether comforted by their family, achievements, religion, are almost ready to move on to a better world. They are less afraid of dying than younger people, and some of them have already packed their bags. They leave this miserable world, which they have created, to the next generation to fix, if they can. They have done their share in the battle of living.
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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
In 1952 before there was a vaccine, 3000 children died of polio. That was in just one year. Without a vaccine, that number would probably continue or even get worse. Are you OK with accepting 3000 deaths from polio every year for ever?
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jeannetherese
Guest
I saw the 5G issue in England. Given the Gates foundation’s interest in population control, it’s surprising to see less attention to the possibility of involuntary sterilization. which has a long history, both nationally and internationally and may now be delivered via a vaccine (depo provera being an injectable example.).
foreignpolicy.com
foreignpolicy.com
The Polio Capital of the World
Pakistan's Army and Lady Health Workers are at the center of the global effort to eradicate polio. How successful have they been?
foreignpolicy.com
The Polio Capital of the World
Pakistan's Army and Lady Health Workers are at the center of the global effort to eradicate polio. How successful have they been?
foreignpolicy.com
Coercive Sterilization: An On-Going Crime Against Humanity
For eugenic goals and population control, governments continue to coerce the disadvantaged into undergoing temporary and permanent sterilization.
aleteia.org
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catholiclala
Guest
I think we are assuming there will be a vaccine, but there is no guarantee. The common cold is a coranavirus and there is no vaccine or cure for it. That being said, I don’t know what to think about a brand new vaccine for a novel virus. Every vaccine I’ve taken has been tried and true and I have no allergies. I can’t make a decision unless the vaccine is here and I can research more. I’m not anti-vaccine but there are too many instances of things being declared safe and then not too far after released beng deemed the opposite. Also, I have to add the best defense against this virus is wearing a mask and even goggles and gloves. Social distancing helps but barrier protection is the best defense. This virus can linger in the air so just because you are far apart doesn’t mean you may not pass viral particles that are still floating about. This is why I’m so beyond angry that US officials are just now telling everyone masks are a good idea for average citizens.
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sallybutler
Guest
You could also say since 100% died from their heart stopping, they must have had an underlying heart problem.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
How do you judge “too many?” There are some that say government regulations on medical treatments are to strict and the tests take too long. (I am not one of those voices, but still…)
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catholiclala
Guest
Take this as my opinion then. Not really up for a debate or willing to link to what comes to my mind here.
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Dovekin
Guest
My perspective may be a little different. When I was diagnosed as a diabetic 50 years ago, I started to take insulin. I could have held off until they started producing better insulin, rather than harvesting it from pig pancreases, but I would have died. I could have worried that the zinc added to the insulin would interfere with my metabolic processes, but I would have died. I could have refused a few years later to use insulin produced by genetically modified bacteria, but I probably would have died.
Decisions about vaccines will be similarly motivated. If there are no more than 10,000 deaths, the level we are at now, many people will not get the vaccine. If there are more than 2 million deaths, a lot more people will get the vaccine, no matter what they tell you now. The prospect of death can overcome many hesitations about novel vaccines or about longterm safety. You have to be alive longterm for that to matter. The more people feel threatened by the virus the more they will accept a vaccine.
Decisions about vaccines will be similarly motivated. If there are no more than 10,000 deaths, the level we are at now, many people will not get the vaccine. If there are more than 2 million deaths, a lot more people will get the vaccine, no matter what they tell you now. The prospect of death can overcome many hesitations about novel vaccines or about longterm safety. You have to be alive longterm for that to matter. The more people feel threatened by the virus the more they will accept a vaccine.
blackforest
Well-known member
I don’t think you’ll find much evidence to support this speculative claim. Polio is transmitted through the fecal-oral route, a phenomenon greatly improved by better sanitation. I’m glad we have the vaccine; it most certainly hastened the decline of the disease. But there’s no evidence that we would have seen more cases without it. Polio remains endemic in countries with poor sanitation and/or OPV vaccination programs.
That’s why I leave these matters to choice. The issue is too complex to declare all vaccines holy water and demand full-scale compliance. I say all of this as a mom who just took her kid in for booster shots before the COVID-19 quarantine.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The US did not have terrible sanitation in the 1950’s. I know. I grew up in the 1950’s and we were quite clean. There is little doubt that polio vaccine saved a lot more lives than it lost. And with just a little bit more testing, they could have avoided most of those losses and still reaped the benefits. No matter how you look at it, the vaccine was a win overall.LeafByNiggle:
I don’t think you’ll find much evidence to support this speculative claim.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Get vaccinated or don’t. It’s up to you.
As my friend’s dad used to say, “Be good. If you can’t be good, be careful. If you can’t be careful, don’t come crying to me.”
And don’t take up a hospital bed, either.
As my friend’s dad used to say, “Be good. If you can’t be good, be careful. If you can’t be careful, don’t come crying to me.”
And don’t take up a hospital bed, either.
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blackforest
Well-known member
Back on topic, (from polio, that is), here’s an interesting development in the vaccine trials. Let’s hope they’re conducted ethically! Wetangu'la calls on leaders to reject COVID-19 vaccine test in Africa
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catholiclala
Guest
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jeannetherese
Guest
Kenya is already very sensitive to this issue.
Back when Ebola came out, concerns were raised that it also might be linked to vaccination aid programs.
The suggestion to start with Africa as a testing ground is likely to strike a nerve or two among some populations.
Back when Ebola came out, concerns were raised that it also might be linked to vaccination aid programs.
The suggestion to start with Africa as a testing ground is likely to strike a nerve or two among some populations.
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catholiclala
Guest
The link is not working for me.
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jeannetherese
Guest
If you are referring to Blackfforest’s link, It’s coming on with a double click for me.
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catholiclala
Guest
No, it’s your link that’s not working for me. It’s being blocked, but no worries.
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jeannetherese
Guest
Vaccine multipurposing (for population control reasons) was a big issue 3 years ago in Kenya, so you can imagine the response in Kenya to the notion of Africa as corona virus vaccine testing ground. Here’s an excerpt:
"Raila, who was addressing the press from Capitol Hill, said laboratory tests from various hospitals showed the vaccine had traces of a hormone that would render the recipients infertile.
“The Catholic Church was right. Hundreds of our girls aged between 14 and 49 years old will not have children because of the state sponsored sterilization project that was sold to the state as tetanus vaccination,” said Raila.
He said this conviction was arrived at after assessing analysis from Agri Q Quest, Nairobi Hospital, University of Nairobi and Lancet Kenya, and “the results indicate that the vaccine had a high content of Better human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG) that causes sterility in women.”
He described the vaccination a ‘human rights abuse’ and asked the government to publish a full list those who were involved in the process.
But WHO and UNICEF, through their Kenyan representatives, have said in a statement: “These grave allegations are not backed up by evidence, and risk negatively impacting national immunization programmes for children and women.”
“WHO and UNICEF confirm that the vaccines are safe…"
"Raila, who was addressing the press from Capitol Hill, said laboratory tests from various hospitals showed the vaccine had traces of a hormone that would render the recipients infertile.
“The Catholic Church was right. Hundreds of our girls aged between 14 and 49 years old will not have children because of the state sponsored sterilization project that was sold to the state as tetanus vaccination,” said Raila.
He said this conviction was arrived at after assessing analysis from Agri Q Quest, Nairobi Hospital, University of Nairobi and Lancet Kenya, and “the results indicate that the vaccine had a high content of Better human chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG) that causes sterility in women.”
He described the vaccination a ‘human rights abuse’ and asked the government to publish a full list those who were involved in the process.
But WHO and UNICEF, through their Kenyan representatives, have said in a statement: “These grave allegations are not backed up by evidence, and risk negatively impacting national immunization programmes for children and women.”
“WHO and UNICEF confirm that the vaccines are safe…"
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Allegra
Guest
And goes through their toiletry bag to see what meds they take?
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