When did Catholics shift this far towards the right/conservatism?

[Peeps]

I think what the poor are missing is a healthy lifestyle, which is very difficult to maintain when you don’t have the money to buy “healthy food”, and when you have to buy food that cooks up big amounts of filling stuff that can keep your whole household from feeling hungry.

E.g., various macaroni (not “pasta!”) type casseroles (or “hot dishes” if you prefer)–these can be done with little or no meat (expensive), and very cheap cheese–even just a tiny bit of Velveeta or cheese product mixed with a simple white sauce (flour, fat, some kind of thin broth). Makes a huge vat of casserole, and it sticks to your ribs–a child who eats this for supper is likely to get through the night without waking up in the middle of the night hungry.

There are also ethnic dishes that utilize really cheap cuts of meat–e.g., chicken necks, ham hocks, etc.

And taters–still really cheap in the U.S., as as many of the other root veges–not a lot of fiber, but filling.

And there’s powdered milk, which isn’t very tasty, but it’s better than no milk. And Kool-Aid–cheaper than soda–although soda in the United States is CHEAPER than bottled water!! I am NOT KIDDING! I drink a LOT of soda (a six-pack a day of 16.9 oz bottles), and I pay around 33 cents a bottle for this–while bottled water costs around 1.99/bottle.

As for “exercise” and “working out” etc.–for the poor, this isn’t always possible due to time constraints (utilizing public transportation to get around means that your time isn’t your own) and safety–there are neighborhoods in our city where the people, including the children. don’t ever go outside ever than to get into a car and drive away–they just did a news story last week on one of these neighborhoods–so sad!

And there are other habits that seem to be part of poverty–use of tobacco, and cheap alcohol, and staying up very late to watch endless TV, and not keeping regular hours (often due to having several jobs and disrupted sleep patterns–which can also occur because of constant gunshots and gang warfare in their neighborhoods)–and of course, incidents of racism and discrimination which continue to occur.

And the poor usually don’t get screened for glasses and hearing problems until they are in school, so sometimes they don’t see or hear well, and sometimes the children have various attention disorders which were caught during school screening–but when and how will the parents find time to deal with this on top of everything else?!

 

[Peeps]

But yeah, generally, the people who get the raw deal as far as healthcare in the US are not the destitute. It’s the lower middle class; they aren’t poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but they tend to work jobs that don’t offer health insurance.

But they will not be turned away. Yes, some hospitals will turn them away–e.g., our city’s Catholic hospital will not accept Medicaid patients or uninsured patients–isn’t that kinda sad? But our inner city hospital will not turn anyone away. I’m guessing there is some kind of financial “perk” that we get from accepting uninsured patients, maybe a tax break. Or maybe that’s why we’re chronically short-staffed–they spend all their money on the poor instead of staffing our departments! So maybe I should offer it up when were are running around like chickens with our heads cut off?!

 

[Peeps]

The problem is that people without insurance often turn up at the emergency room. They won’t be turned away, but the condition might have become acute, and if they had had insurance, they might have been able to nip it in the bud during a routine visit.

It’s not just the poor that avoid seeking treatment or skip their “routine visits.”

PLENTY of insured people do the same stupid thing! They don’t get around to making their screening appointments (after all, who loves colonscopies?!), they keep cancelling their routine physicals, they leave their home blood pressure cuff in a drawer and never use it, they ignore that constant tickle in their throat, or that ache in their back, or that chest pain that happens whenever they go up steps–and the next thing they know, they’re in the Emergency Room and getting admitted to Cardiac or Oncology.

PLENTY of rich people do this! It’s just human nature to avoid unpleasantness.

I took my husband to the E.R. last night. He has COVID, and I did not like the way he was working so hard to breathe and making so much noise doing it. And when his fever hit 103, I said, “Get your coat on, we’re going to the E.R.”

And they admitted him. The nurse told me, “You did good to bring him in.”

A lot of people wait too long with COVID, and by the time they get their loved one to the E.R., the lungs are already gone. Take heed, everyone.

 

[MikeInVA]

The problem is that people without insurance often turn up at the emergency room.

Actually, the problem isn’t insurance, it is the emergency room concept. An emergency room should be for injuries - those are emergencies, but are also the point of entry into the hospital system for illnesses as well. I think these “minute clinics” that I see opening everywhere will provide relief to emergency rooms, but it will take time and education to make that happen.

 

[signit]

But yeah, generally, the people who get the raw deal as far as healthcare in the US are not the destitute. It’s the lower middle class; they aren’t poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but they tend to work jobs that don’t offer health insurance.

Or the people like me, who pay for their own health insurance.

And for someone my age, the cost of health care is astronomical.

And:

I work in a hospital.

No one is turned away. No one, even “illegals.”

Which is great, except for one thing; somebody else has to pay for it.

That “somebody” has to pay for it through their tax dollars, or, if the person just never pays it and the provider has to write it off, “somebody” has to pay for it through increased health care costs.

I don’t think I’m “far right” not to want to pay for it. Especially since I’ve had to pay for my own health insurance all my adult life.

 

[RhodesianSon]

Or the people like me, who pay for their own health insurance.

Few people get the shaft like a small business owner.

 

[Peeps]

Which is great, except for one thing; somebody else has to pay for it.

That “somebody” has to pay for it through their tax dollars, or, if the person just never pays it and the provider has to write it off, “somebody” has to pay for it through increased health care costs.

I don’t think I’m “far right” not to want to pay for it. Especially since I’ve had to pay for my own health insurance all my adult life.

Oh, I agree with you. It’s not “free.” Someone pays for it.

And I do think it would be worth looking into some kind of “basic health care” program–but I simply don’t think our federal government is capable of creating such a program.

There is a 50/50 divide–the two major parties are so far apart, even though some would have us to believe that they are basically the same. We just lived through four years of horn-locking, and I don’t believe for one minute that the new administration is going to bring everyone together.

And what exactly is “basic health care?” Is treatment for obesity included in that? Ai yi yi! There are still a lot of people who claim that obesity can be overcome by “eating right and exercising.” Ha ha ha.

How about if people continue to smoke while they are getting their “basic health care?” Should they be told to come back when they quit smoking?

And there are a lot of people in this country who consider “abortion” basic health care. Uh UH! No.

And how about elderly people? There’s a whole range of health care issues there that young people just can’t even imagine!

And how about stuff like Aspergers?" Some people don’t even admit this is a “condition.” They claim that this is normal and we used to just call these kids “squares” or “nerds” or “geeks” or whatever the term was in any given era.

What is “basic?” AND…does this “basic health care” HAVE to be administered by an M.D.? How about an APN? Or a P.A.? Or a naturopath? Or personal trainer? Oh, boy, I sense a LAWYERS’ PARTY TIME over this!!! Lawsuits by the thousands!

I don’t know the answer. I don’t think anyone does. We make a lot of assumptions and I think probably most of them are not reality, and until we have a firmer grasp on reality, not “reality from the point of view of the new media entertainment professionals,” we really can’t do much to change the way healthcare is delivered in the U.S.

My answer would be more free clinics–we have these in our city, and they are funded and supported by rich people who have balls, parties, silent auctions (Rolls Royces and BMWs, not tickets to the movies!), etc. where millions are donated to pay for these free clinics. They are beautiful (not former downtown stores that look like tenements), and they are staffed by the same docs and health care professionals that work in the hospitals in our city. And they’re free, totally free. I know people who lost their good-paying jobs who use these clinics, and they love them! To me, that’s the answer–charitable giving to help those who cannot afford health care insurance. Get rid of public aid, and there will be even more money to pay for these free clinics.

 

[ralfyman]

I think for industrialized countries it started during the early 1980s. It did not take place readily in developing countries.

The former waned during the early 2000s because of 9-11, etc., but the opposite took place in developing countries because of economic growth.

During the last few years, it has happened to both because of the failures of globalization caused by increasing debt, limits to growth, ecological damage, and perceptions of increasing conflict coupled with arms deployment worldwide. However, it’s more of populism coupled with nationalism.

 

[F_Marturana]

I know people who’ve had to declare bankruptcy because of a preemie birth.

I have a preemie. He’s 12 now.

He was born in a county hospital because that one was the closest one to go to.

NICU’s are the best funded part of the hospital, is what I learned.

Medicaid will pay the NICU stay of the babies whose parents qualify for Medicaid. Meaning assets under 15,000. If you own a house, tuff cookies.

We were middle class, not wealthy.

The hospital he was born at was not in network. The hospital social worker needed to work with my insurance to provide coverage because it was an emergency scenario. Then constant finagling in order to have him stay, until he was ready to go home. He would have bradycardia, and could not go home until he spent 48 hours without a bradycardia. I don’t know if you’ve witnessed a baby in bradycardia. I saw literally him turn grey. Babies are not supposed to be grey.

I still got a letter that they didn’t consider his scenario an emergency so they would not cover it.

I received the letter after hours on a Friday. We spent the weekend worried that we would have to sell our house, or go bankrupt.

It was issued in error.

My husband is a cancer survivor.

He had cancer before Obamacare. We had insurance.

Every single claim we submitted was rejected. Every single one. Because of clerical decisions. Every single claim has to be fought by me spending hours on the phone. Even claims that were submitted perfectly. And then someone in their end made a typo.

Bankruptcy for medical care is a real part of the US health system.

“A new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work. An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found.”

My sister is currently going through cancer, and has been laid off. She’s paying her insurance through COBRA. She lives in fear that her former company goes under and she loses coverage.

She doesn’t qualify for Medicaid. She’s worked since she was 12. She’s been independent since our dad died when she was 21. She helped care for our mother. She did everything right. She owns her home and has some savings.

It’s still no where enough to pay for cancer treatments.

 

[signit]

I know people who’ve had to declare bankruptcy because of a preemie birth.

I have a preemie. He’s 12 now.

[edit]

My husband is a cancer survivor.

[edit]

Bankruptcy for medical care is a real part of the US health system.

“A new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work. An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found.”

[edit]

Oh, believe me, I’m 100% with you.

In an ideal world, somebody wouldn’t lose their home and all they’ve got because they or their child had medical issues.

And I’ve heard plenty of human interest stories about families forced into poverty because they have a child with a serious illness.

But, I still say, we have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

There are still a lot of people who claim that obesity can be overcome by “eating right and exercising.” Ha ha ha.

I realize that some people have an underlying medical condition that predisposes them to obesity, but for a lot of people the reason they’re obese is…drumroll…poor diet and lack of exercise. It’s not a crazy suggestion.

 

[Stephen_says]

What do you mean by

But, I still say, we have to draw the line somewhere.

?

 

[Lea101]

I am seeing on CAF a dramatic shift to the right:

If you care for an outsider’s perspective…

As the culture became more and more liberal in areas we can’t compromise on, many felt out of place and went with the side that at least agrees with them on certain matters. This led many to consume right wing content, maybe a bit too much if you ask me, because the left wing doesn’t want to compromise either.

As a result, you have dissonance and eventually it’s easier to just agree with basic right wing opinions and views (basic group polarisation). This isn’t unique to Catholics, more like practicing Christians in general.

When you consume a certain type of content that intentionally selects the worst of their opponent and you’re bombarded with the horrid left, you naturally become more extreme. There are some interesting studies that showed people hold onto their beliefs more firmly when they see a dumb argument from the other side, and strong arguments from their side. Which is basically what you see in various echo chambers such as specific forums, political pundits’ channels etc.

In short, it looks like people generally shifted because that side agreed with them on things that they couldn’t compromise on, and it’s generally human nature to avoid dissonance as much as possible, so they naturally adopt whatever their home team believes in (or at least has a bias towards). It reminds me about Candace Owens on Joe Rogan’s podcast, where she said she didn’t believe in climate change, because liberals are into it and that she simply thinks evidence are biased despite not studying the matter beyond 1 day.

 

[adamhovey1988]

If you actually do expect (or invite) people to debate every little point with you – count me so far out we don’t even share the same planet anymore.

You went the professor Farnsworth route?(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[RhodesianSon]

The vast majority of overweight people are overweight due to a lack of personal self discipline.

I carry a few extra pounds because I’m old and broken but I still manage to keep it under control mostly by avoiding high sugar foods/drinks and a high protein diet.

 

[signit]

What do you mean by

signit:

But, I still say, we have to draw the line somewhere.

?

From post #172:

Peeps:

I work in a hospital.

No one is turned away. No one, even “illegals.”

Which is great, except for one thing; somebody else has to pay for it.

That “somebody” has to pay for it through their tax dollars, or, if the person just never pays it and the provider has to write it off, “somebody” has to pay for it through increased health care costs.

I don’t think I’m “far right” not to want to pay for it. Especially since I’ve had to pay for my own health insurance all my adult life.

For example, border controls.

With border controls, that person using health care services and leaving others to pay for them would be less likely to be in the country in the first place.

As I said, I’m sympathetic; but it’s not sympathetic to ask someone else to pay for their services.

 

[Methodist]

In short, it looks like people generally shifted because that side agreed with them on things that they couldn’t compromise on, and it’s generally human nature to avoid dissonance as much as possible, so they naturally adopt whatever their home team believes in (or at least has a bias towards). It reminds me about Candace Owens on Joe Rogan’s podcast, where she said she didn’t believe in climate change, because liberals are into it and that she simply thinks evidence are biased despite not studying the matter beyond 1 day.

That is one of the best analyses of this phenomenon that I think I have seen. Thank you. Quite by chance, only the other day I came across a very good example of this from the evangelical sphere. I read that at Bob Jones University, it was once the rule that male students were permitted neither long hair nor a beard. Supposedly there is some biblical justification for insisting that men should have short hair. However, there is absolutely no biblical justification for insisting that men be clean shaven. Indeed, the university admitted that Jesus had a beard (again, I think the evidence is thin, but that is what they said). So, the reason for banning beards on the Bob Jones campus was not theological, but political. The authorities felt that beards were in some way liberal, unpatriotic, un-American, and un-Christian, and that a conservative, patriotic, American Christian man should therefore be clean shaven. What it came down to was that if the hippies at Berkeley had long hair and beards, then the students at BJU had to have short hair and be clean shaven.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

That shouldn’t be possible in such a small forum.

6k in about 8 months.

Wait what!?

 

[TMC]

Yeah, I’m at 6k in about 8 months. Not sure this is really proving the “RuthAnne wasn’t a troll” proposition.

Wow, I feel unliked. I have only 2.7K in 13 years. (Never knew you could even check that until this thread.)

 

[Bluesky]

In Ontario we have a lot of improvements that need to be made to our system, but no one in my family has ever had a problem getting the medical care they needed for cancer, surgeries, NICU or anything. You show your health card and it’s done, you don’t even see any bills. Its really heartbreaking seeing people having to worry about healthcare when they’re sick.

I can understand the resistance in moving to a new system though. Some want to bring in universal drug coverage here, and I’m here thinking, well I already have that maybe we don’t need it. But really I’m paying for seniors, children and low income earners already. I might as well benefit too then my employer can spend less on my insurance.