When did people start holding hands in Catholic churches?

[paramedicgirl]

paramedicgirl,

You seem to have misread what I stated in the first paragraph. It actually sounds like I hit a trigger. My “judegement”, as you say, is not that you follow the rubrics, but that you are complaining that the rubrics “requires” your obedience to actually have to touch those “godawful” Christians next to you. Sister (I think that you are Christian so that this means something), I take offence that you judge our Spiritual Father, Pope Benedict XVI and the other Bishops of the Catholic faith. We are to be of like mind in Christ. Let’s dig in the scriptures just for a moment. These are some “one another” quotes that I referenced quickly for your edification.

Please reread what I wrote. I did not judge anyone. show me where I mentioned having to touch god awful Christians, and show me where I judged the Pope and the bishops.

Actually never mind, I just remembered the ignore button.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Nobody is calling other Catholics ‘godawful’ so please spare us the rhetoric and the ad hominems.

We are not at all objecting to community. Or to ‘following the rubrics’. The sign of peace, according to the rubrics, does not prescribe touching anyone, but to exchange a ‘sign’ of peace. (In our diocese, that is given as exchanging a nod OR a handshake in a sober manner only to those right next to us, thank you). And that isn’t because touching is itself ‘icky’, but because not everybody is comfortable in what is a ‘forced’ intimacy, for many reasons.

God’s peace to you. . .Which I can and do wish you without physically touching you.

 

[Cobbfmly]

…As far as the sign of peace, I find that it is distracting, simply because you go from a solemn moment to a greeting which is more cordial and something that would be better suited under the Liturgy of the Word, or during the opening blessings. I am not against it per se, but where it is in the order of mass…

Pope Benedict XVI also has concerns about the placement of the sign of peace:

"-- Pope Benedict said the sign of peace at Mass “has great value,” especially in demonstrating the church’s responsibility to pray for peace and unity in a world too often troubled by division, violence and hatred.

While Catholics at Mass should exchange a sign of peace with those near them, he also called for “greater restraint” to ensure the moment does not become one of irreparable distraction.

The pope said, “I have asked the competent curial offices to study the possibility of moving the sign of peace to another place (in the Mass), such as before the presentation of the gifts at the altar. To do so would also serve as a significant reminder of the Lord’s insistence that we be reconciled with others before presenting our gifts to God.”" catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701411.htm

 

[mdstanzel]

Okays, I think I through with the lashing by the moderator.

First, read my profile. PLEASE. look up all of my posts since November 2006. I went to confession for the first time in 17 years the Saturday following All Souls Day. I left for multiple reasons. The first is that I thought you were all going to hell, based on my fathers pre-Vatican II concept that if your not Catholic you’re gong to hell, point blank. The second is that my mother believed that if you’re Catholic you’re all going to hell. I’ve been looking for peace my entire life of almost 46 years. I’ve been to hell and back so many times because of what others believed they thought they knew.

If you have a problem with things you don’t like, say it with humility and frankly shamefullness for not feeling better about it. I am ashamed that others talk before Mass. Just this morning, I took my wife to her first weekday Mass. The service (Protestant terminology) was pretty good and large for a weekday Mass - in all about 300 to 400 Christians. Not bad huh. I’ve never seen this in the 70’s or 80’s. This church/Parish is doing something right. However, a murmer was distracting me from concentrating and I fought off the evil thoughts of how I felt about it, trying to follow my own preaching. As I let it go, the voices became clear to me and it was then that I realized they were reciting the Liturgy of the Hours as I was planning on dong on my own. I was ashamed before God and them - even though they did not hear my complaints.

Lets go from there. The rest deals with, if the Church did not want us to shake hands, then the Church should tell us not to shake hands or move around. And since th NO has been in place for HOW LONG and still no direction from the Bishops. Well that sounds petty to me. Maybe they want us to break to remember that we approach Christ as a Church, not just as an individual. Oh by the way, try typing coherrently with a whining 2 year old and video games in the background.

 

[lak611]

Pope Benedict XVI also has concerns about the placement of the sign of peace:

"-- Pope Benedict said the sign of peace at Mass “has great value,” especially in demonstrating the church’s responsibility to pray for peace and unity in a world too often troubled by division, violence and hatred.

While Catholics at Mass should exchange a sign of peace with those near them, he also called for “greater restraint” to ensure the moment does not become one of irreparable distraction.

The pope said, “I have asked the competent curial offices to study the possibility of moving the sign of peace to another place (in the Mass), such as before the presentation of the gifts at the altar. To do so would also serve as a significant reminder of the Lord’s insistence that we be reconciled with others before presenting our gifts to God.”" catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701411.htm

I like the Pope’s idea. That would solve the problem of the sign of peace being distracting.

 

[Miserissima]

I like the Pope’s idea. That would solve the problem of the sign of peace being distracting.

I second that idea, and it would move with the “flow” of the Mass, as in “We come together as one people to present our gifts to the One Church.”

Thanks for the heads-up, Cobbfmly!

 

[mdstanzel]

Pope Benedict XVI also has concerns about the placement of the sign of peace:

"-- Pope Benedict said the sign of peace at Mass “has great value,” especially in demonstrating the church’s responsibility to pray for peace and unity in a world too often troubled by division, violence and hatred.

While Catholics at Mass should exchange a sign of peace with those near them, he also called for “greater restraint” to ensure the moment does not become one of irreparable distraction.

The pope said, “I have asked the competent curial offices to study the possibility of moving the sign of peace to another place (in the Mass), such as before the presentation of the gifts at the altar. To do so would also serve as a significant reminder of the Lord’s insistence that we be reconciled with others before presenting our gifts to God.”" catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701411.htm

I AGREE! But lets not jump the gun until the desired change is made. My new Catholic family is trying to live in peace and not be discouraged by the constant complaining and disagreements. I’d like to see a return to orthodox Christianity with the 5 hours Liturgies. Really. St. Crysostom shortened the Mass by about 1.5 hours and later many other changes were made that reduced it even more. The first Worship service (Liturgies) were much longer and in the tongue of the time or GREEK. Let’s go back to Greek. The eastern Church might be more open to us if we did this. I’m sure I’m not the only one that feels this way. I love the Latin Mass, but I would enjoy the Greek as well. And from what I hear, the Orthodox Liturgies are very confusing and they do not genuflect, they bow. The Orhtodox probably look like the original Liturgies anyway, so why not just do that?

I’m really only trying to get the tickers working in a way that includes the rest of us who nearly crumble when we are directed to give the sign of peace. I feel like I’m being judged by others during the Mass now. Talk about taking away a solomn moment. I’m afraid to try to make friends with Catholics because they are so judgemental and disobedient. Like I said earlier, if this were our former church, you would be asked to be silent or leave, no other options. I’m only asking for everyone to be patient until the changes come about and to be careful how we complain about something that makes you “feel” uncomfortable. What’s that song that says, “feelings aren’t always real”? I wonder if Satan is trying to tear us apart with pettiness.

 

[mdstanzel]

Oh yea. I feel like the Catholic Church is a 2 tier system - new converts and those raised in the Catholic Church.

Read the “universal” **YOU **when you think I’m talking directly to you.

 

[archangel63]

I like the Pope’s idea. That would solve the problem of the sign of peace being distracting.

If they move the sign of peace, I think they should move it to the end of the Mass where the priest says, “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord”. That way people can shake hands and head out the door and actually talk to one another walking out. It would be in rhythm with the Mass…
…but I can handle it where it is now. Who am I to say?

 

[mdstanzel]

BTW, Is there really an “ignore button”? I’d like to ignore some of the complaining so I’m not tempted to post.

 

[BobP123]

BTW, Is there really an “ignore button”? I’d like to ignore some of the complaining so I’m not tempted to post.

There sure is. Just click on the person’s ID and follow directions. But be careful and don’t put yourself on ignore. You won’t know what you posted.

 

[blessedtoo]

I feel like I’m being judged by others during the Mass now.

I think your response is incongruent with what has actually been said in this thread. In fact, the actual exchange that started this debate indicates that you were the first to make a judgement of another.

When I am at a Novus Ordo Mass, I share the sign of peace as prescribed by the rubrics; in a solemn manner and only to those immediately around me.

When I am at a TLM, I thank God there is no sign of peace.

Why? Do you not love God’s children?

We all understand the significance of the Kiss of Peace in the Mass. I am not “afraid” to reach out my neighbor in charity. We are directed, as puzzleannie said, to extend this chatiry in a solemn manner and only to those immediately around us. In many Churches, the Kiss of Peace can go on for 5 minutes, with folks leaving their pews to wander around, priests leaving the altar, chatting, kissing, etc. This is what most of us find distracting and disturbing. Surely you must see the difference?

 

[paramedicgirl]

There sure is. Just click on the person’s ID and follow directions. But be careful and don’t put yourself on ignore. You won’t know what you posted.

 

[mdstanzel]

I think your response is incongruent with what has actually been said in this thread. In fact, the actual exchange that started this debate indicates that you were the first to make a judgement of another.

We all understand the significance of the Kiss of Peace in the Mass. I am not “afraid” to reach out my neighbor in charity. We are directed, as puzzleannie said, to extend this chatiry in a solemn manner and only to those immediately around us. In many Churches, the Kiss of Peace can go on for 5 minutes, with folks leaving their pews to wander around, priests leaving the altar, chatting, kissing, etc. This is what most of us find distracting and disturbing. Surely you must see the difference?

You interpretation was twisted from the beginning. Between you and the moderator I was never allowed to really expand on my comment.

 

[mdstanzel]

I really was not insulting. I was trying to get someone to understand where my family is coming from. This seems so screwed up. To trade one screwed up religion for another?

I would like to see all women silent in the worship. And that’s not an insult to womanhood. I just see it in the scripture and believe it. I also would like to see them cover their heads with either long harid or clothing. I would love to see women stop wearing flashy jewlry too. So I’m sure I sound like a dinasour. But I don’t carry on about it.

 

[mdstanzel]

If you haven’t banned me or “ignored” me then you might find this helpful for what I’m thinking

Often, when people talk about religion, they are apt to wander off into metaphor or formalistic language, without doing the work necessary to tie what they are saying to the realities of life and the real problems that we face in our fallen nature. In fact, people often seem to be weaving a tapestry of words for which they have no real content and which has no real connection to their lives or the world around them. They treat religion as a sort of fantastical game or an intellectual construct, amusing in itself, but having no power to integrate the rest of their experience. Often, this leaves people suffering, because in fallen nature we have real problems which are evil and cause suffering; however, people are helpless against these problems because they have relegated the Faith to an abstract and ineffective game, rather than trying to learn and live what it has to teach for our salvation.

This comment was made by a member of on this forum. I thought I’d share it with you because it expresses something that touches home with my life. My father was a TLM only man and later in his life claimed that the Catholic Church no longer exists. He too had the same issues many of the “traditional” Catholics here have. He went to Mass everyday.

I finally understand now that even the Church Fathers said that schism is worse than heresy. But why would anyone want to choose one over the other? Why not just submit? I sincerely do not understand others issues, but the complaining is chasing people off in confusion and that is not my judgement to make on those that chase people off. I however do believe that those that do this will be held accountable for it on the judgement day. We don’t get off if we’re not sorry and we know. In my book, you’re either Catholic or perporting to be Catholic (not really transformed). I’m not talking about non-Catholic Christians (The term “Protestant” offends more Christians like where we came from), Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, athiest or whatever.

 

[mary_bobo]

I have to drive 200 miles for a TLM. Needless to say I’ve never been there. I would love one as close as yours. I was away for some years as well. Although I had been going to Mass throughout the years but not receiving…I didn’t understand what was going on. My brother’s were altar boys…and to she the girls was really strange and surprising. In my church people hold hands but not everyone does it. I don’t do it The lifting of the arms and such as a link to the hand holding sort of makes sense; but I’ve had people actually reach out and take my hand. I just let them, what you going to do? snatch it away??? that wouldn’t be nice.

There are a lot of things that have changed. Like I said I would love to have a TLM Mass close by. I wonder how I could go about getting one for this area; or if that is even possible. mmm

I always thought the hand holding and such came from the Charismatic movement.

Elizabeth

/

Try looking up your diocese online and see if any church has a TLM. Or you could ask what your Bishop’s feelings on the subject are.

 

[ElizabethPH]

/

Try looking up your diocese online and see if any church has a TLM. Or you could ask what your Bishop’s feelings on the subject are.

Thanks so much for your response Mary. My whole state is one diocese and we have 2 TLM churches in the state. We don’t have a Bishop, but sort of an administrator until Rome gives us a Bishop. Anyway I digress. I would think he might be able to help; at least tell me how he feels about it. I found his address and thought I’d send him a letter.

 

[Like]

He’s not entirely accurate; postural issues not defined in the GIRM or in specific national bodies national instructions for the Roman Mass are left to the Bishop’s discretion.

The Bishop MAY have delegated this…

Most of the Roman parishes in Anchorage have the bulk of the laity using the Orantes/Orans posture for the Our Father.

Very Rev. Fr. Leo Walsh, STL, Vicar General for the Archdiocese of Anchorage, specifically teaches that it is one of the **approved postures IN ANCHORAGE for the Our Father. **Not that it is a required posture. And, while I don’t have the images available to show, there are some very old illustrations showing the laity using the orantes posture in both East and West.

** It is part of our Jewish inheritance within the church.**

Aramis, why would it be different in ANCHORAGE than the rest of the state or US? Also, I’ve never heard of it being our **Jewish inheritance.
**

 

[Like]

Thanks so much for your response Mary. My whole state is one diocese and we have 2 TLM churches in the state. We don’t have a Bishop, but sort of an administrator until Rome gives us a Bishop. Anyway I digress. I would think he might be able to help; at least tell me how he feels about it. I found his address and thought I’d send him a letter.

Hi Elizabeth, would you mind coming back here to let us know what your administrator (bishop) says?
Mahalo!