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Denae
Guest
LOL! I hate latex gloves…they make my hands all itchy and uncomfortable.
But thanks for the offer.
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But thanks for the offer.
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Aramis
Guest
The Archbishop of Anchorage.
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Like
Guest
Did you actually read the quote from the GIRM you posted??? Like walking home said you really shot yourself in the foot!
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tunemiester
Guest
This holding hands nonsense started not only from AA, but is also a throw back to the 60’s civil right marches where participants held hands and prayed.
Holding hands while praying is a sign of unity and our unity as Catholics is what’s contained in the tabernacle!! A few years back I saw at the US Bishops Conference on EWTN this subject brought up, and the president of the conference told the Bishop asking about it that he saw no big problem with it so it really didn’t need to be addressed. They are the ones who would have to give a ruling on it during a celebration of the Mass.
As far as the “Orans” position in prayer - I do know people who really pray in that position unless they have a rosary or prayerbook in hand.
Holding hands while praying is a sign of unity and our unity as Catholics is what’s contained in the tabernacle!! A few years back I saw at the US Bishops Conference on EWTN this subject brought up, and the president of the conference told the Bishop asking about it that he saw no big problem with it so it really didn’t need to be addressed. They are the ones who would have to give a ruling on it during a celebration of the Mass.
As far as the “Orans” position in prayer - I do know people who really pray in that position unless they have a rosary or prayerbook in hand.
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Aramis
Guest
Yes. And it leaves the decision up to the bishop. Yes, he has to run it by Rome first, but it is rare for the papacy to deny something that isn’t obviously heretical.
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Walking_Home
Guest
But as you said----it has to be run by Rome first—otherwise without approval ----it is illicit.
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BobP123
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Actually tolerance makes it licit too. But sometimes it’s hard to tell which is which.
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Like
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Happy to see you changed your original stance.
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BobP123
Guest
I believe the bishop needs to run it by his synod of bishops first. Vatican II promoted this concept of collegiality if you remember. Realistically, if the synod approves there’s not much the Vatican can do.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Tolerance can get us to a whole bunch of trouble. Imagine a Mass—where tolerance reigns supreme.
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Aramis
Guest
No, that’s not it. Read it carefully. The postural issues require rome to be put in the missal, not the mass.
To Like:
I’ve not changed my position a whit. the GIRM says it’s the bishop’s discretion. I went and reread carefully…
Note that the recognatio is required to put into the missal, not the missae/mass. So until they decide on a local Missal, it’s promulgation but not in the missal.
It’s publishing that requires Rome. So, since the basic sit-stand-kneel has been well established, the USCCB got pontifical approval for it, it’s in the missal. But how to stand is not, even though the bishops can and DO make proclamations about it. They DO NOT get it in the missal without Rome’s approval.
And, while the Mass is, at its core, recorded in the missal, the missal and the mass are NOT the same.
And, having ordinary jurisdiction, Rome can countermand any local ordinary should they see fit. Not that that’s been done enough.
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Walking_Home
Guest
The Roman missal regulates the Mass. From the information that you–yourself provided—any adaptations to the missal are to be approved by Rome. Once approved—then they can be incorporated into the missal (GIRM) and put into action. Without direct approval (recognitio) —adaptations do not have a binding force----a bishop cannot bind his diocese to the adaptation. The same thing goes for the conference of bishops.
RS-2004
[28.] All liturgical norms that a Conference of Bishops will have established for its territory in accordance with the law are to be submitted to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for the recognitio, without which they lack any binding force.65]
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Like
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abu_kamoon
Guest
Novelties, more novelties.
This is the Modernism that the popes used to warn against.
ابو كمون
This is the Modernism that the popes used to warn against.
ابو كمون
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OLRansom
Guest
It started after Catholic churches became places for a mere assembly, and dogma-less humanitarianism (slowly and rather imperceptibly) replaced the holy Catholic faith.
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lak611
Guest
Catholic churches will always be sacred places where Jesus is present in the tabernacle and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered. They are never places for a “mere assembly”.
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RWMorris
Guest
I don’t understand the whole “holding hands” thing. We are there to worship God, not to join in a big kum-ba-yah campfire ring. Incidentally, that is also my objection to too much P/W music that focuses on us rather than God.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
If I could take you back to the early 70s when the “Sign of Peace” became a part of the Mass, it might be eye opening. It was my experience that people would simply nod and say “Peace be with you”. By the late 70s people would shake hands. By the early 80s, in some parishes, the “glad-handing” was encouraged by the priest. One of the reasons I left my geographic parish for my cathedral parish is that father would leave the sanctuary and run up and down all the aisles shaking hands. This would have been 81 and 82.
Wasn’t done at the cathedral. Isn’t done at the cathedral. Hand holding for the Our Father…as a member of the cathedral choir, I started noticing this at diocesan Masses (ordinations, etc) in the late 80s. And it is very, very noticable today…at diocesan Masses where everyone reaches out and even lifts their hands at the end of the Lords prayer. And when we get families visiting the cathedral from off the Mississippi riverboats. You can see the looks of puzzlement when our parishoners refuse to participate. When the steamboats aren’t in, we do not hold hands. When the steamboats are in we don’t hold hands.
That’s my observation. And it really distresses me to see people doing “the wave” and then walking across the aisle with the Eucharist present on the altar to “glad hand”
Wasn’t done at the cathedral. Isn’t done at the cathedral. Hand holding for the Our Father…as a member of the cathedral choir, I started noticing this at diocesan Masses (ordinations, etc) in the late 80s. And it is very, very noticable today…at diocesan Masses where everyone reaches out and even lifts their hands at the end of the Lords prayer. And when we get families visiting the cathedral from off the Mississippi riverboats. You can see the looks of puzzlement when our parishoners refuse to participate. When the steamboats aren’t in, we do not hold hands. When the steamboats are in we don’t hold hands.
That’s my observation. And it really distresses me to see people doing “the wave” and then walking across the aisle with the Eucharist present on the altar to “glad hand”
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Miserissima
Guest
How odd, brother. In about '87 or '88, in the parish of my youth, the only hand holding was going on in the choir loft.
Also, I grew up with a strict protocol for the Sign of Peace: you turn to your left and right, and maybe behind you. That’s it. I never knew it was optional to shake hands or not.
Where I am now, however, there doesn’t seem to be any way out of it.
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tmw
Guest
I don’t know when, but when I see this I just want to ask everyone who holds their hands up in the orans position - “when were you ordained”? STOP HOLDING HANDS - YOUR NOT PRIESTS!!!
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